A question for Greg (and anyone else who want's to chime in)

[Greg_L]

Lol. Never said you weren't correct. My contemplative hypothetical thinking process was a 1W/2W/whatever valve amp is gonna crank out gnarly tones at much lower & mike-friendly volumes. I'm talking recording scenario here, of course.

"Mic friendly volume" isn't a thing. Can you overload certain mics with loud amps? Sure, but then you're using the wrong mic. And a 1w amp can still be loud enough to piss off the neighbors. A single Vintage 30 speaker pumps out 100 decibels at one meter from one watt. That's loud enough to get you evicted in an apartment. So where's the little watt advantage if loudness is a concern? Everyone wants to CRANK their little amps because they can. Cool, you're potentially making 100 neighbor angering decibels. And the tonal problem with that is that you're not even making the speaker work, and a speaker working hard is a big part of the final tone. Power amp breakup is great, but if the speaker stays stiff, then what are you accomplishing? You might as well just use a sim. And on top of all that, what are you going to pair this little amp with? A little cab? Great, you just cooked up a recipe for little guitar tones. Maybe that's what you want, and that's fine, but if you want a big sound big gear does it with no tricks necessary. You can't fool a microphone. It will capture what you feed it. Feed it a big sound if you want a big sound.

To be fair, this ain't my idea. It's a common tip around, to use low-wattage amps/practise amps/etc in the studio. Now, whether it's all baloney as you seem to insist... is another matter.

I think it's baloney because I've tried both ways, I've heard lots of other people try both ways, and it's just common sense that a 1w amp cannot sound like a 100w amp. That's not to say that you need a 100w amp for everything. But if you need or want huge rock and roll amp sound, a little watt amp doesn't do it. Can you fake it? Maybe. If you're into that sort of thing, sure, add tons of layers and reverb and other tricks.

Of course I love gut-mashing cranked-to-buggery rockin' amps like the next guy! I guess I question the idea that sticking a mike up to this volcanic cock-holocaust is going to capture in any real way this organic live vibe? But... I'm not really siding either way in the argument. To be honest I think both sides have good points. "Loud & defined" may indeed capture well, and my idea of "blasting wind" into the mike may be erroneous. I guess the question is, how does it compare to a low-wattage amp miked up? What is this anomalous "power vibe" thing that is somehow captured by a mike onto a digital track?

[ducks in advance]

All I can suggest to you is to try it for yourself. You seem to be trying to talk yourself into a little amp. I'm assuming you have very little experience with either method of amp recording, so just try it and see. I think little watt/low volume lacks most of the good things found in great guitar tone. They're fine for dicking around, but they don't make any sounds I'd want live or recorded. YMMV. I tend to get the impression that people justify little amps based on things like cost, size, and weight. Valid concerns for some people. Some people might give up tone for the ease of flinging around a 1w practice amp. Fine, whatever. For me it's just about sound, and little amps don't sound nearly as good to me as big amps. Maybe you'll think otherwise, or maybe you'll agree, but you do need to try it for yourself..

 

[majax]

Yeah all valid points. Sorry if I've made you repeat yourself, I've probably missed some threads where you've said much of this previously. Anyway thanks for your input Greg. I was just sounding out the idea cos as I said the issue cropped up recently for me.

 

[JDOD]

I think 1W or possibly 5W is just too much of a compromise.

Even though I've had precious little recording time in the last couple of months 'cos I've been so busy with live stuff I'm very happy with the tone from a 20W amp. Sure, its way too loud to completely crank for just practicing and writing, but I don't mind using sims or having the amp down quiet for that. But when you do crank it, it sounds good without starting to rattle pictures off the wall or crack the plaster! I think its the right sort of compromise with my situation and limitations. Especially now that I'm hauling it between my house, my flat and rehersals all the time.

Been playing live with the master at 1/2 to 3/4 volume with a 57 in front of it and what's coming back through the monitors sounds good. We recorded off the desk on Saturday night so I'll be curious as to what that sounds like.

I was playing with a mate one evening last week and he had the 5W Blackstar. Sounded good when we really cranked it in the room, but if you were singing loudly over it, you'd still have been able to be heard. It would have completed with a drumkit but only just. No idea how that would work recorded. Probably alright.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah all valid points. Sorry if I've made you repeat yourself, I've probably missed some threads where you've said much of this previously. Anyway thanks for your input Greg. I was just sounding out the idea cos as I said the issue cropped up recently for me.

Lol. I'm constantly battling people on this because I feel that too many people are trying to take too many shortcuts. That's just how I feel. I ultimately don't care what anyone does because I don't have to or want to listen to their music, but "the easy way" spreads really fast on internet forums and before you know it everyone thinks sims and little amps are better than the real thing. I'll fight it as long as I have the energy. Actual drum recording is already pretty much a dead art form for home recorders. Everyone wants the quiet ease of drum programs, and they don't care that their drum tracks sound like a robot on a typewriter. So real drums have already been marginalized by the modern igeneration of home "recorders", and it seems big powerful, but great sounding amps are going the same way. Amp companies are fooling these idiots into thinking their little versions of their big models are just as good. Good for business, bad for music.

 

[Greg_L]

I think 1W or possibly 5W is just too much of a compromise.

Even though I've had precious little recording time in the last couple of months 'cos I've been so busy with live stuff I'm very happy with the tone from a 20W amp. .

I think that for rock and roll, you're right, a 1 or 5 watt amp is way too much a compromise. 20-30 watts IMO is right around where things start getting interesting. They can be plenty adequate to compete with rock drummers, bass, and another guitarist. And of course, 50-100 watts being just about perfect.

 

[JDOD]

I think that for rock and roll, you're right, a 1 or 5 watt amp is way too much a compromise. 20-30 watts IMO is right around where things start getting interesting. They can be plenty adequate to compete with rock drummers, bass, and another guitarist. And of course, 50-100 watts being just about perfect.

Its nice, when the master starts to get around past 12 O'clock for rehersals, you do dial back slightly on the pre-amp.

I would have loved to have got the 30W version with the V30 in it, it was only £150 more but then that amp would have been "within itself" more often so I would almost never get the best out of it. I think I made the right choice in the end even though I wasn't sure about it at the time.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Its nice, when the master starts to get around past 12 O'clock for rehersals, you do dial back slightly on the pre-amp.

I would have loved to have got the 30W version with the V30 in it, it was only £150 more but then that amp would have been "within itself" more often so I would almost never get the best out of it. I think I made the right choice in the end even though I wasn't sure about it at the time.

I have a Mesa Mark V ( among many other amps) and I use it for low volume recording and low volume gigs because it has such a great pre-amp set-up.
A lot of Mesa sound is pre-amp based and they're very good at it and it sounds quite nice at low volumes.
Does NOT get the high volume sound Greg gets because you simply can't get that without pushing power tubes hard and without pushing the speakers which adds its own sound to the mix.
But it has good sounds of its own ......... just different.

So it's bikeweek here and I picked up a few gigs with a local southern rock band where I got to use it on a big stage at high volume.

Figured I'd set the channels on their 90 watt settings ..... leave my settings alone since I've tweaked them to perfection in the studio and simply turn up the Master.
I prepared to enjoy sonic bliss.
Nope ...... sounded like CRAP!

I had to keep pulling the gain back and back and back and it still was a mushy mess.
I finally got it somewhat under control but never did get it sounding very good.

The lesson is that a power section turned down low requires MUCH different settings than one turned up.

Next time I play with these guys I'm just taking my Ampeg V-2 ....... ain't no fancy schmancy pre-amp on that beast ....... just power and loudness ....... I'm betting they all gather round at the break and bow to the 45 year-old Mesa killer.

Actually I probably need to dial in some settings on the V that are for high volume gigs but taking the Ampeg will require no effort.


And no ...... you're not blowing wind in a mic at high volumes ...... put your hand in front of a lord cab and see how much wind you feel ...... none.
Mics are designed to handle certain levels of volume ..... if it's within that range then it's fine.

 

[Greg_L]

Yes exactly! The amp's own character and circuit design can dictate how loud and how much gain you can balance.

Mesas have always been strange animals to me. Great cleans, great high gain, but the entire middle ground of the Mesa character is kind of bleh to me. And that middle-gain crunch ground is where I do most of my guitar stuff so naturally I gravitate to "brit" amps and I've never gotten along with Mesas too much. Other people do great with them though. I heard this Texas bluesrock band the other day using Mark Vs and they sounded amazing, but they were also using Bluesdrivers and stuff like that. I couldn't really tell how much was amp an how much was pedal. But no matter, they sounded good, and they were loud.

My JVM does good "low" volume (my low volume is probably too loud for most people) recording because, in my own estimation, it has a very tight power section that resists breakup. It gets most of it's goods from the preamp circuitry, so it doesn't have to be literally cranked, but it does sound much better, and records better, when it's up around gig volumes. I want to get the cab and speakers contributing. Little amps and TV volumes don't do that at all.

 

[minerman]

I've heard lots of other people try both ways, and it's just common sense that a 1w amp cannot sound like a 100w amp. That's not to say that you need a 100w amp for everything. But if you need or want huge rock and roll amp sound, a little watt amp doesn't do it. Can you fake it? Maybe. If you're into that sort of thing, sure, add tons of layers and reverb and other tricks.



All I can suggest to you is to try it for yourself. You seem to be trying to talk yourself into a little amp. I'm assuming you have very little experience with either method of amp recording, so just try it and see. I think little watt/low volume lacks most of the good things found in great guitar tone. They're fine for dicking around, but they don't make any sounds I'd want live or recorded. YMMV. I tend to get the impression that people justify little amps based on things like cost, size, and weight. Valid concerns for some people. Some people might give up tone for the ease of flinging around a 1w practice amp. Fine, whatever. For me it's just about sound, and little amps don't sound nearly as good to me as big amps. Maybe you'll think otherwise, or maybe you'll agree, but you do need to try it for yourself..

Greg's right man, I'm one of those very people who have went from sims, to low-watt amps/small cabs, to the real thing here. There just isn't anything like 'em IMO, sure, you can get close, by jumping through a bunch of hoops to get there, but it's just so much simpler to have & record the real thing, so: IMHO, if you want a big amp sound, record a big, loud amp, the end.....

Now I'm not saying that little amps don't/can't sound good, because they can, I've had a few of 'em. And I'm not saying something like a Kemper of AXE-FX can't sound good, because they can (I've never had enough $$$ to try one of these out), but for your basic, loud-ass sounding rock-n-roll sound, there's quite like using a big, loud, amp....YMMV...

 

[JDOD]

Mesas have always been strange animals to me. Great cleans, great high gain, but the entire middle ground of the Mesa character is kind of bleh to me

I tried a duel rectifier about 6 weeks ago. I was absoultely amazing for high gain.

 

[GONZO-X]

Your question is like asking "how long is a piece of string".

this.

 

[Robus]

IMHO, if you want a big amp sound, record a big, loud amp, the end.....

To put it slightly differently: If you want the sound of a big, loud amp, record a big, loud amp. Makes sense.

Evaluate any amp based on the results you get in the music you play. I record with small tube amps exclusively, because of workflow and because I like the way they sound in my music.

 

[Greg_L]

 

[Robus]

I'll join you!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Evaluate any amp based on the results you get in the music you play. I record with small tube amps exclusively, because of workflow and because I like the way they sound in my music.

and this is a key point ...... no one says small amps can't make good, even great sounds.
They just produce different sounds than a big honkin' Marshall or equivalent.

If the sounds they make fit someone's music then they're perfect.

For that big rock crunchy sound ..... Greg actually gets it as good as I've heard anyone get it and he does it with a wall of Marshalls and he tweaks the sound by turning it up!

Me ...... I don't personally obsess over sounds that much ..... my approach is more to work with whatever I have and let it affect the direction the music goes.
So I go with more of a general idea .... I'll intend for it to be clean or dirty and then whatever clean or dirty I get is what I'll work with.
But that's just my taste ...... others obsess over every tiny tonal change they get ........... both are equally valid approaches.

I have to say though ...... if I ever write something that really needs that big huge sound I'm not even gonna try to get it ...... I'll just send the file to Greg and have him play it.

 

[Greg_L]

I'll join you!

Okay, but do you know what we're laughing at? I do.

 

[Greg_L]

and this is a key point ...... no one says small amps can't make good, even great sounds.
They just produce different sounds than a big honkin' Marshall or equivalent.

If the sounds they make fit someone's music then they're perfect.

Yeah I've always tried to be careful to mention that very thing when I go on my rants about little amps. If you're playing jazz or rockabilly, naturally you don't need 100w fire breathers. You do probably still want them loud though. I'm looking for an old Fender or I might build one myself for some surfabilly. I'm not using stacks for that.

For that big rock crunchy sound ..... Greg actually gets it as good as I've heard anyone get it and he does it with a wall of Marshalls and he tweaks the sound by turning it up!

Me ...... I don't personally obsess over sounds that much ..... my approach is more to work with whatever I have and let it affect the direction the music goes.
So I go with more of a general idea .... I'll intend for it to be clean or dirty and then whatever clean or dirty I get is what I'll work with.
But that's just my taste ...... others obsess over every tiny tonal change they get ........... both are equally valid approaches.

I have to say though ...... if I ever write something that really needs that big huge sound I'm not even gonna try to get it ...... I'll just send the file to Greg and have him play it.

Haha, better yet, just come over and we'll make glorious noise.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Haha, better yet, just come over and we'll make glorious noise.

that'd be a huge amount of fun ...... I used to play loud ya' know.

With Gregg Wright one night he had two 100 watt stacks and I was playing bass thru 4 A7's!!!
Altec Lansing A7 825 Vott Vintage PA 15' LF Speaker Cabinet w 421 No Horn | eBay
...... I ran around 1000 watts into them and that was a LOT for the 70's.

Ah man ...... I do miss it.
Nice to know it all settled in at Greg's house.

 

[Greg_L]

that'd be a huge amount of fun ...... I used to play loud ya' know.

With Gregg Wright one night he had two 100 watt stacks and I was playing bass thru 4 A7's!!!
Altec Lansing A7 825 Vott Vintage PA 15' LF Speaker Cabinet w 421 No Horn | eBay
...... I ran around 1000 watts into them and that was a LOT for the 70's.

Ah man ...... I do miss it.
Nice to know it all settled in at Greg's house.

Lol. Those are some cabs. I used to play with a guy that had an Acoustic bass cab similar to that. It was about as big as a refrigerator. It didn't sound great, but it was BASS. It shook the earth with an SVT head. It also weighed about 5.8 million pounds.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Lol. Those are some cabs. I used to play with a guy that had an Acoustic bass cab similar to that. It was about as big as a refrigerator. It didn't sound great, but it was BASS. It shook the earth with an SVT head. It also weighed about 5.8 million pounds.

I mostly remember the soundguy pleading with us to turn down!!




I honestly don't remember if the A7's sounded good or not.

I've always had a studio and been good with sound so I'd bet they sounded pretty good ....... but nowadays I find 15's to be too slow and way prefer the transient attack of 10's for bass.
And actually I think a case can be made for 10's on guitar too.