A question for Greg (and anyone else who want's to chime in)

[gecko zzed]

A LOT of taking a song off and running to the back .... listening .... running back on stage for half the first set.

When I was playing in bands, I somehow always got landed with that job, and I spent my time doing exactly the same thing.

It really annoyed me that we played and, when playing, I couldn't hear what the audience could hear.

In the end, the light bulb burst into incandescent brilliance, and I realised that I enjoyed listening more than playing. From then on I effectively switched careers and went from on-stage to front of stage doing sound.

Ironically, I still do a lot of running around . . . to different parts of the venue, or up behind the band on stage . . . but for the same reason . . . to hear what they are hearing.

 

[Bubba po]

....and another thing; how come our pair of modest (200w each) powered wedge monitors fed straight from the desk aux sends via a cheap 15 band stereo eq blow the socks off any hired-in PA I've ever worked with? Hired PA = money for old rope.

 

[rob aylestone]

What amazes me are the sound people with no idea about different styles of music. The ones with a metal history are the worst, when given a lighter band. The ones who Dona great sound check, then afterwards slap compressors on everything and turn the levels up. We did a big indoor arena on a corporate show, and sound check was nice, then the show started two hours later. First song starts with a loudish A on my bass, the band join in after a four count. I hit the A and the world ended! Wow! I do know what Greg means about those places where you have no control of the venue guy. Even though it's in out contract, tough! I saw one band the other day who solved it by having an X32 in their rack, and using all their own kit, giving the venue a left and right which they couldn't wreck.

 

[gecko zzed]

I saw one band the other day who solved it by having an X32 in their rack, and using all their own kit, giving the venue a left and right which they couldn't wreck.

It can backfire.

This happened to me once. The group came in, set up with their stuff, and gave me a left and right.

No worries, easy job I thought.

Well, they started up and it was bad.

And the audience were looking at me as if I was screwing them round, when they were doing it right royally to themselves.

 

[rob aylestone]

One little trick we learned when they HAVE to mix us, is to wait till somebody says "so he's the lead singer and you're BVs? right?" - and I say, yes on song 3 and 6, but I'm lead on the first half of 2, then I do BVs and the drummer takes the rest, and he's BV on the choruses of 7, but does half the lead lines on the second and third verse - tell you what, I've got these changes all written out - you do read music, don't you? If it helps, do you want our sound guy to stand next to you and talk you through the show, song by song? Doesn't work with everyone, but many see the problems coming up and gladly duck out.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

One little trick we learned when they HAVE to mix us, is to wait till somebody says "so he's the lead singer and you're BVs? right?" - and I say, yes on song 3 and 6, but I'm lead on the first half of 2, then I do BVs and the drummer takes the rest, and he's BV on the choruses of 7, but does half the lead lines on the second and third verse - tell you what, I've got these changes all written out - you do read music, don't you? If it helps, do you want our sound guy to stand next to you and talk you through the show, song by song? Doesn't work with everyone, but many see the problems coming up and gladly duck out.

I've mixed dozens, perhaps hundreds, of bands that can manage complex vocal arrangement without somebody riding faders. They work their mics. But if your act will suffer without your guy riding vocal faders then that's okay with me as long as he doesn't screw something up.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

And, sheesh, you guys must play some crap venues to be having that kind of trouble.

 

[Greg_L]

And, sheesh, you guys must play some crap venues to be having that kind of trouble.

No dude, the venues are mostly great. Mostly. I play bars and clubs set up for live music. Big places, good stages, good lighting, pretty large sound systems. These aren't coffee houses or dives with an open corner for a band. These are mid-level touring band size places with built in mains and dedicated sound booths. These venues aren't Madison Square Garden, but they are too big for a band to not have sound support through the house system. So it's not the venues, it's the local soundguys. They're scrubs.

 

[jimistone]

soundmen are obsessed with every channel kicking the meter the same level, having total control over lead and rythym guitar volume oevels, and overall band mix. Unfortunately, bands lack punch in the guitar department with a typical sound man's mix. They will have you turn the guitars way down on stage and try to make your guitar sound all PA... and have too much guitar in the monitors. Also, it's hard to find a sound man who doesn't have the bass guitar sounding like a loud low end roar that lacks any definition whatsoever.

 

[Bill L]

As a sound guy, I'm getting a kick out these stories. As a musician in a couple of regularly gigging bands, I'm also getting a kick out of the stories. I'm not sure who said it earlier but there are nut jobs on both sides. When I'm on sound, I always let the band be the band. I'll mic everything (usually because I'm recording it as well) but only put into the mains what needs to be there. If guitars and bass need to be in there, I'll add it. When playing, I'm never the loudest. I usually set up next to the drummer and, as mentioned, my volume is based on his (and he's a somewhat quite but very consistent drummer). And my basic thought when doing sound is, make it sound as natural as possible. All EQ starts flat. Listen to the band and make it sound as close as you can to what's happening on stage. But I am lucky in that a few of my friends do this professionally full-time with major touring bands or their own companies and I get to observe or work with them and that has helped me tremendously.

 

[Farview]

Part of the problem with club sound guys is what they pay club sound guys. That is the absolute bottom of the sound guy food chain.

How would you attract anyone worthwhile when they work from 5 pm to 3 am two days a week for $75/day.

Corporate gigs (non-union) tend to pay $15-20/hr.

Theater gigs also happen on weekend nights, so you really can't do both that and club gigs...

It's a bad job that tends to pay nothing.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

No dude, the venues are mostly great. Mostly. I play bars and clubs set up for live music. Big places, good stages, good lighting, pretty large sound systems. These aren't coffee houses or dives with an open corner for a band. These are mid-level touring band size places with built in mains and dedicated sound booths. These venues aren't Madison Square Garden, but they are too big for a band to not have sound support through the house system. So it's not the venues, it's the local soundguys. They're scrubs.

Then I'm going back to my original theory, that the good ones have all left that area for something or some place better. Or maybe they put the trainee on for local bands. Around here it varies quite a bit but it's not so universally bad.

 

[Greg_L]

they work from 5 pm to 3 am

Ha, yeah right. Most bands load in to bars/clubs around here around 6:30. That's the average standard load-in time. Some bands are late, but me being the badass that I am, I'm always on time because I've got a fucking drum kit to set up, or I want to backline my shit before a bunch of other fuckers are also trying to get their shit set up.

Anyway, I've never in my life, never, seen a soundguy at the club as early as we're supposed to load in. They usually stumble in around 7-8. Sometimes they tell me "that can't go there yet". My response is "well it's there now, I was on time, and no one was here to tell me otherwise". So I usually win.

 

[Greg_L]

Then I'm going back to my original theory, that the good ones have all left that area for something or some place better. Or maybe they put the trainee on for local bands. Around here it varies quite a bit but it's not so universally bad.

That could be true, or it could be my theory that they're all just shit.

It's such a dumb, thankless job, I'm not surprised that it would attract the scuzzier people that don't care about anything.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

It could also be related to genre. Some people just can't handle punk. I personally don't care what the music is called, if it's good it's good and if it's bad it's bad.

One of the best bands I've mixed was a punk band. By far the worst one was also a punk band. They were on the same show and the bad one was the headliner. The opener, King Rat, was great. They were professional, prepared and sounded awesome even while they kept their stage volume right on the edge of too much. The Screaming Bats were the exact opposite, a bunch of amateur rich kids with attitude instead than talent. Their sound, dominated by the synth through a cheap distortion pedal, was horrible and way too loud right from the start. But you know what? I still tried to make sense from the shapeless roar coming from stage, right up until people started to stage dive and break mic stands, and when the lead "singer" started doing the Roger Daltrey helicopter with my mic I shut off the PA. It's the only time I ever did that.

 

[Greg_L]

Ha ha. I don't condone bad punk. I constantly rail against the chickenshit halfassed "it's only punk" mentality to justify suckiness. Houston has a disease called "crust punk" and it's fucking shit. Crust is actually a pretty old sub-species, but it's making a gross resurgence. I hate those fuckers. I'm okay with guys that maybe aren't the best players. I'm okay with guys that maybe can't afford the best gear. I'm not okay with guys that suck and celebrate their suckiness by purposefully sucking even more than they would naturally. And take a bath, you pathetic fucking losers.

Anyway, for me, I'm not like that. The bands I play with are not like that. We honestly try to be as good as we can, and sound as good as we can.

 

[Farview]

Ha, yeah right. Most bands load in to bars/clubs around here around 6:30. That's the average standard load-in time. Some bands are late, but me being the badass that I am, I'm always on time because I've got a fucking drum kit to set up, or I want to backline my shit before a bunch of other fuckers are also trying to get their shit set up.

Anyway, I've never in my life, never, seen a soundguy at the club as early as we're supposed to load in. They usually stumble in around 7-8. Sometimes they tell me "that can't go there yet". My response is "well it's there now, I was on time, and no one was here to tell me otherwise". So I usually win.

Chicago area is a ridiculous market. Depending on how many bands they cram on the bill, the show will start at 7:30. Hell, there is one place (the Metro) that routinely starts the show a half hour before the tickets say the doors open. And yes, this is a place that does national acts and has been doing that for decades. I can't tell you how many opening bands (also national acts) that I've missed because i showed up on time.

The sound guys at that place are usually pretty good, but the position of the front of house is in a cubby hole underneath the balcony, which sucks.

 

[Greg_L]

Chicago area is a ridiculous market. Depending on how many bands they cram on the bill, the show will start at 7:30. Hell, there is one place (the Metro) that routinely starts the show a half hour before the tickets say the doors open. And yes, this is a place that does national acts and has been doing that for decades. I can't tell you how many opening bands (also national acts) that I've missed because i showed up on time.

The sound guys at that place are usually pretty good, but the position of the front of house is in a cubby hole underneath the balcony, which sucks.

That's kind of starting down here too. There are way too many bands. Some nights there might be 5 or 6 bands playing. It sucks so bad. I hate it. A lot of these places just don't have the room or layout to have 6 drum kits waiting to go. Halfstacks, guitar cases, bass rigs, it's just shit piled up everywhere. I have two personal rules - I'm not playing before 9:00, and I'm not playing a shortened set because the club overbooked. It's just not worth it. I'm not getting off my couch, loading up gear, driving there and back to play an early slot at an empty club for no money and short sets. Fuck that.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The sound guys at that place are usually pretty good, but the position of the front of house is in a cubby hole underneath the balcony, which sucks.

Whoever put the mix position there deserves to have his windshield painted black save for a 3" circle on the passenger side just above the dashboard. What? Is it hard to drive like that? Now you know how I feel mixing in your club.

 

[Farview]

Whoever put the mix position there deserves to have his windshield painted black save for a 3" circle on the passenger side just above the dashboard. What? Is it hard to drive like that? Now you know how I feel mixing in your club.

It's one of those old 2 story theaters that is 3 times wider than it is deep...with a balcony. If they moved front of house in front of the balcony, it would take up 1/3 of the audience area in the center...

I get why it's there, it just sucks.