16 tracks 2 inch tape?

[The Ghost of FM]

Are you serious, Jeff?

I don't know?

I've been thinking about it for the past year...living in an apartment building now has really put a damper on my recording habits. There's always someone banging in a nail or running the shower and all these noises can be heard pretty easily.

My plan was to buy a house one day and set up a proper studio like I used to have but anything I can afford is way out of town and in areas with little work available so in the meantime, I keep saving my money and hopeful of a market crash! ...which may never come.

If I did sell it, it would have to be a local sale, to someone with a van or good sized car to come and pick it up. There's no way in hell I'm gonna pack it again like I did two years ago when I moved. That took me a month to do, to take it all apart, find suitable boxes, padding and bracing for the boxes...too much work.

Cheers!

 

[Beck]

Don't do it, Jeff!

You'll be glad you held onto it sooner or later.

 

[cjacek]

Jeff,

I stand with Tim (Beck) on this one. I can almost guarantee that you will regret selling the MS-16, just as I am sure I'll be back posting on this board again this week. Tim's right, don't do it.

It may seem the right thing to do, like right now, in the spot you're in, but often, when one's situation or environment changes, so does the way we think and behave.

Take a long, hard look and remember the history of your MS-16, both good and bad, the restoration, the hours spent recording etc.... No matter what you think, it's more than a recording device and you'll agonize over selling it, as soon as you part with it.

If you have any doubt, don't sell it. Put it away, cover it up, don't look at it, even stop recording for a while but don't sell it. You'll always have a recorder to place in your own studio, inside of the proper house you'll soon purchase but if you sell it, you'll never get it back and the money you get for it, won't matter inside of a few weeks anyway...

This is kind of a sore point for me 'cause, Jeff, you're in exactly the same point right now as I was several months ago, when I made one of the most stupid gear decisions, to sell (I won't mention what) that I now regret with each passing day. At the time it sounded like the best thing I could do but as my situation changed, so did my outlook. Oh how I wish I had stopped and first asked you guys what to do, back then. You're asking, we're telling you don't do it. Don't look back, just don't sell.

The mind set you have right now will pass, one day soon, and your MS-16 (your pride and joy) will be there waiting for you.

 

[jjones1700]

Go digital !!!

You know you could get shot for that comment in here right??

 

[jjones1700]

Good point cjacek. I don't have any "pro" equipment, but the decks I do have, I have spent some $ on and put some labor into them. They will have to pry them from my cold, dead fingers before I give them up. Someday I will hopefully have a need for some pro gear and maybe I'll try to buy a 1/2" or 1" machine. That is after I get a good Technics 15xx or higher series deck for the collection. What can I say, I'm a sucker and a slave to the "vintage" gear.

 

[Whoopysnorp]

...one of which is a TASCAM ATR-60. This intrigues me. A quick google search reveals only one other reference to a 2" version of the ATR60/16. Wonder if it's a typo and they meant 1"? It's possible they did do a 2"/16 option, since they did a 2"/24 version, but I imagine it's very rare.

The only tape format I've ever heard of for the ATR-60/16 is 1".

 

[ofajen]

As an alternative, if you really wanna go all out, see about getting a machine from http://www.blevinsaudio.com/tapemachines.html

They have a bunch of 2" 16 / 24 trackers.

...or contact your local studios and ask if they have any recorders they wish to get rid of, that you could take off their hands.

I still say get the 24 track (2") over the 16 'cause it's much easier to "upgrade" to 16 tracks than it is to go from 16 to 24, if and when you need more tracks.

I agree with the rec about Blevins. If I were starting from scratch and looking for 16+ tracks, I'd probably get MCI machines due to the availability of machines and parts. I also agree that it probably makes sense to go ahead and get the 24 track frame, even if you're going to start with a 16 track headstack, because if you ever want to do 24 track, you want a machine wired up with the input, output and edge connectors or whatever so that it can be set up for 24 tracks just by installing the headstack and plugging in electronics cards and cables to the patchbay.

That said, the difference between 16 and 24 tracks on 2" tape could also easily be the difference between needing zero channels of NR and needing 24 channels of NR, since the 24 track format has 50% more tracks that are each significantly narrower and have several dB less S/N. Just a thought.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[cjacek]

the difference between 16 and 24 tracks on 2" tape could also easily be the difference between needing zero channels of NR and needing 24 channels of NR,

Do you know by any chance what the S/N is like for the typical modern, 24 track machine, such as an MCI, Otari or Studer vs that of the 16 track version? Just curious 'cause I've heard a couple of 24 track machines and they were pretty quiet.

 

[ofajen]

Do you know by any chance what the S/N is like for the typical modern, 24 track machine, such as an MCI, Otari or Studer vs that of the 16 track version? Just curious 'cause I've heard a couple of 24 track machines and they were pretty quiet.

I recall that the S/N spec for my M-23 was 62 dB for a single track of the same track width as in 16 tk on 2" (0.075".) However, I can't remember what tape formulation and reference fluxivity were used and I'm out of town on business and can't check the manual. Probably Scotch 111 at 185 nWb/m.

Were the 24 track machines you heard operated without NR? For a given tape formulation, the difference will be pretty much dictated by the difference in number of tracks and in track width (.070" to .075" for 16 track vs. about .040" for 24 track). That will produce about 2.5 dB difference in S/N per track. If you go from 16 to 24 tracks, your noise buildup goes up almost another 2 dB, which adds together to give you about a 4.5 dB reduction in S/N. Often this has been about at the level that folks decided it went from not needing NR to needing NR. In part, I think having the NR simply makes it less stressful to get the recording done, because you don't have to be extremely fussy about maximizing every last dB of S/N out of every single track to just barely end up with enough S/N in your final product.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[cjacek]

I recall that the S/N spec for my M-23 was 62 dB for a single track of the same track width as in 16 tk on 2" (0.075".) However, I can't remember what tape formulation and reference fluxivity were used and I'm out of town on business and can't check the manual. Probably Scotch 111 at 185 nWb/m.

Were the 24 track machines you heard operated without NR? For a given tape formulation, the difference will be pretty much dictated by the difference in number of tracks and in track width (.070" to .075" for 16 track vs. about .040" for 24 track). That will produce about 2.5 dB difference in S/N per track. If you go from 16 to 24 tracks, your noise buildup goes up almost another 2 dB, which adds together to give you about a 4.5 dB reduction in S/N. Often this has been about at the level that folks decided it went from not needing NR to needing NR. In part, I think having the NR simply makes it less stressful to get the recording done, because you don't have to be extremely fussy about maximizing every last dB of S/N out of every single track to just barely end up with enough S/N in your final product.

Cheers,

Otto

It's interesting 'cause I've heard just one machine, I can't recall which model it was but I think it was an Otari (but not certain) and they had a 24 and a 16 track head stack. It was setup for one of the modern high output tapes but most of the program meterial was not recorded hot. I've listenned to both 16 and 24 track masters, done without any NR and I can't say that the noise bothered me with any of the 2 formats but granted that the 16 track was a bit less hissy, though nothing that dramatic over the 24 track. It is my opinion that when you get to that type of format, the electronics you get will be superb (along with better tape) and thus you can really get very decent S/N ratio out of a 2" 24 track. Again, the 16 track was more quiet but it's not an "in your face" difference. It's there but not that dramatic. At the same time it's an objective thing. I, for example, don't think my TEAC 3440 needs NR at all but some don't like any hiss and want dead silence.

 

[Beck]

Yeah, I’ve always been the dead silent type (wait, that sounded odd, didn’t it?) Anyway, I was always obsessed from the begining about hiss and hum. That’s one reason I started down the digital path early on, until I realized digital didn’t do as well with sound as it did with silence. In fact I’ll even say that IMO digital sounds phenomenal (until the music starts)… and 24/96 sounds even quieter in between songs than 16/44. You've really gotta not hear it to believe it

Noise gates and noise reduction have been with me almost from the beginning. You get really spoiled with Dolby A and Pro DBX, which I was exposed to early on.

The noise on 24 tracks all in use can get pretty bad without NR, depending on the material being recorded of course.

 

[poopchute]

Hi,
I have a couple of questions. First is the tascam MSR-16 the same thing as a MS-16?
2nd how would someone go about getting 16 tracks of analog into a Computer say with a Digi-002? Or anyother method.
3rd,
What would a person expect to pay for a Tascam MS-16 on ebay?

 

[A Reel Person]

...

Tascam MSR-16; 1/2"; $650~$850 (est).
Tascam MS-16; 1"; $1000~$1250 (est).

How you'd get 16 tracks to your 'puter using a Digi002?
Mix down from tape and dub to the 'puter in stereo.

 

[poopchute]

Actually I meant how can I get 16 seperate tracks into a digi-002 so I can mix and edit in Pro-tools? I suppose you could do 8 at a time but then if I did that wouldnt I have trouble with the first set of 8 tracks lining up with the second set?

 

[cjacek]

Actually I meant how can I get 16 seperate tracks into a digi-002 so I can mix and edit in Pro-tools? I suppose you could do 8 at a time but then if I did that wouldnt I have trouble with the first set of 8 tracks lining up with the second set?

Whatever you have, you need to have 16 seperate inputs going into your computer and the capability to transfer all in real time, otherwise your tracks will drift.

 

[poopchute]

Dont they have those delta 1010 interfaces? Or possibly a M-Audio version. I thought that digi recently bought up one of those companies and has it where you can buy 1 of those rigs and it also comes with a copy of ProTools.
I will have to look into that. Because 8 tracks just isnt enough for the type of things I want to do. But I LOVE my 8-track reel to reel. I just need a few more tracks and whenever I fill up the 8 analog tracks I find myself saying, "well what instrument can I do on the digi. But then I think I dont want to make any instrument sound like crap by using the digi to record it. Only to edit and add effect.

 

[Hi_Flyer]

a delta 1010 will give you eight inputs. I think you can sync two together to give you 16 simultaneous. they are PCI cards.

there are probably better options that will get you better sound quality, but two 1010LTs are probably the cheapest way to 16 inputs. Delta 1010s are made by M-Audio, and that stuff is supposed to play nice with Pro Tools now. Or better yet, ditch Pro Tools and use Reaper so that you can use any hardware interface you want.

if you have a three head deck, you can bounce tracks off tape on the way in to the computer after you fill up eight tracks on 1/2", that's what I do sometimes. It sort of eliminates the need for a larger format deck (and more expensive tape).

 

[Whoopysnorp]

Actually I meant how can I get 16 seperate tracks into a digi-002 so I can mix and edit in Pro-tools? I suppose you could do 8 at a time but then if I did that wouldnt I have trouble with the first set of 8 tracks lining up with the second set?

If you have a Digi 002, you would need to acquire an 8 channel A/D converter with an ADAT Lightpipe output. You could connect that to the Lightpipe in on the 002 and have your 16 channels.

 

[poopchute]

Whoopy,
Thanks alot. That sounds like a good idea.
But I must confess. Part of the reason I am asking this is I really want to get rid of my 002.
In a perfect world I would have a 16 track Analog R2R, And just a simple (if you can do it simple) 16 Input interface to get the Analog tracks to my computer. I still want to use ProTools itself. So whatever interface I get it needs to work with PT. I dont need the 002 itself. And would love to sell it, take the money I get from it and buy the 16input interface along with a copy of ProTools. I'd probably end up with money in my pocket from the deal as I dont think the interface with a copy of PT would be anywhere near what the 002 would sell for even used.
I guess for what I intend to do I feel like I have wasted money sitting on my desk that I could use for other things, like condoms and an STD test.

 

[ausrock]

Poop,

Just out of curiousity, what do you consider a fair price for a s/hand 002?