1/4" master to CD

[evm1024]

SNIP

Can you monitor the 22-2's output with good headphones through its own headphone socket and then listen to it again after you have connected the line output to the 2496? Is there any audible difference there?

SNIP

The headphone amp (at least on my tascam 32) does not reflect the quality of what is on tape. The amp used is quite hissy. And is of unknown frequency response (is it flat or?) It has been shown that very minor differences (on the order of 0.1 dB) in frequency response are quite apparent but listeners don't know why this one is better than that one.

Monitor the actual signal path and minimize the variations. Using an outboard amp monitor the decks output and then switch the same amp/headphones to the 2496's line out to listen for differences.

 

[FALKEN]

There are some pretty interesting converter comparisons out on the web. They can be pretty eye opening. I think the difference between something that is $99 for a pair of channels and something that is $999 for a pair of channels is clearly audible. Still, the sound will not be the same (whether the converter is "better" than the tape or not, it will not sound the same, I think we can all agree). I usually throw an eq between the tape and the converter (outboard, spdif, btw) and monitor off of the digital signal while transferring.

You know, there used to be a word for the optimization of audio for a different format.

 

[Farview]

I think the bottom line is there is always going to be a difference between the source and the copy. There is no way around that.

 

[Tim Gillett]

The headphone amp (at least on my tascam 32) does not reflect the quality of what is on tape. The amp used is quite hissy. And is of unknown frequency response (is it flat or?) It has been shown that very minor differences (on the order of 0.1 dB) in frequency response are quite apparent but listeners don't know why this one is better than that one.

Monitor the actual signal path and minimize the variations. Using an outboard amp monitor the decks output and then switch the same amp/headphones to the 2496's line out to listen for differences.

For the purpose of a simple diagnostic comparison the headphone amp doesnt need to be very good. We are checking for a significant drop in level or frequency response due to loading effect. Low level hiss would not be relevent in such a test since the signal would be well above it.
I agree that directly monitoring the line outs of the 22-2 would be ideal but we're talking basic diagnosis of what sounds like a significant difference. We're probably not talking subtleties here.

In that light I suspect my discussing making improvements of maybe 2db in headroom were probably useless since I suspect we're talking about something more gross than those sorts of subtleties. The 2496 card has an A weighted S/N of around 100db on the AD converter. A slight reduction of that is not going to make much difference to the result.


The 2496 card has a stated input impedance of 10k ohm minimum. That's not brilliant for connecting to consumer gear which can require a higher impedance. On my X-3 into the 2496 I could not detect a significant audible loading effect. But his setup may be different. The loading effect was what I was trying to eliminate as a possible cause.

Finally if a difference of just 0.1db in frequency response over the entire audio band is what this guy is really hearing then I'll just sit this one out, thankyou very much. I'm well in over my depth...
You make me laugh sometimes Ethan.

Tim

 

[Beck]

The headphone amp (at least on my tascam 32) does not reflect the quality of what is on tape. The amp used is quite hissy. And is of unknown frequency response (is it flat or?) It has been shown that very minor differences (on the order of 0.1 dB) in frequency response are quite apparent but listeners don't know why this one is better than that one.

Monitor the actual signal path and minimize the variations. Using an outboard amp monitor the decks output and then switch the same amp/headphones to the 2496's line out to listen for differences.

That's an important point. The headphone amp on the 22-2 is a completely different circuit and is hissy as well... at least on the two I own.

I'm glad you brought that up for another reason too. I had forgotten to mention to Golden to make sure the mic input level controls are down if not using them.

The 22-2 is a lot of machine for the money, but there are little things one can do to optimize performance … and if you have a mind to, you can change out the op-amps and a few resistors and improve the overall residual noise. That and crank up the flux to 250 or even 320 nWb/m. It is capable of much more than it’s modest factory settings. It's been a fun machine to work with.

 

[Beck]

I'm well in over my depth...

I agree with that 100%. We've found some common ground... how 'bout that?

 

[evm1024]

Sterio Review

There once was a shootout between 15 (or so) cd players. The reviewers went through them and did blind A/B tests. They were able to pick out a specific player at a rate greater than random. After some careful measurements they found a 0.1 dB rise in the response curve at some (forgottten by me) frequency.

Once they corrected this rise that player (a $79 sharp) it was indistinguishable from a $700 Denon.

The conclusion was that cd players all sounded the same.

They did note that the reviewers were all able to hear a greater difference between individual cd (they used multiple copies of the same cd) than between the players themselves. It was presumed that what was actually heard was more error correction on one cd over another.

Now I don't expect that we are talking about a 0.1 dB difference. I did point out that 0.1 dB differences are easily detectable and thus one can conclude that 5 or 10 dB difference would be less than subtle....

 

[evm1024]

ECHO ECHo ECho Echo echo ech ec e

... Tim, I have only one question for you... Have you A/B'd a 1/4" master tape to a digitalized transfer (CD/WAVE) of that same tape @ 16/44 done on your m-audio 24/96? If so, did you hear a difference? My only "problem" is that "difference"... That shoudn't be too complicated...

My problem is what happens to the sound when it's tranferred to digits... I'm chuckling to myself, cause that's all I've been saying...

I was fine with the 24/96 until I A/B'd the 1/4" master and the CD master on my main entertainment stereo system in my house... To be honest, the difference isn't too huge... It was "reasonably" close... But it was a "big" enough diff to wrestle my feathers... I just want to get it as close as I possibly can to the original tape, I guess...

If there's a better way to realize the best possible transfer, why should I settle for "less"? Right now, I believe that better way to be an AD converter of quality.

Here's a link that may be helpful to anyone who's reading this and is considering a route to go to get that better transfer...CLICK

Thanks everyone!

Just thought that I would requote you to remind myself what the question was....

 

[Beck]

There once was a shootout between 15 (or so) cd players. The reviewers went through them and did blind A/B tests. They were able to pick out a specific player at a rate greater than random. After some careful measurements they found a 0.1 dB rise in the response curve at some (forgottten by me) frequency.

Once they corrected this rise that player (a $79 sharp) it was indistinguishable from a $700 Denon.

The conclusion was that cd players all sounded the same.

They did note that the reviewers were all able to hear a greater difference between individual cd (they used multiple copies of the same cd) than between the players themselves. It was presumed that what was actually heard was more error correction on one cd over another.

Now I don't expect that we are talking about a 0.1 dB difference. I did point out that 0.1 dB differences are easily detectable and thus one can conclude that 5 or 10 dB difference would be less than subtle....

Fascinating info Ethan. In addition to the central point, I also find the error correction observations particularly intriguing. Do you remember what year or issue of Stereo Review this was in? I’ve recently been delving into the workings of various error correction schemes and their impact on what we hear vs. what was recorded. Interesting stuff.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Once they corrected this rise that player (a $79 sharp) it was indistinguishable from a $700 Denon.....

ouch. hurts.

 

[Tim Gillett]

Now I don't expect that we are talking about a 0.1 dB difference. I did point out that 0.1 dB differences are easily detectable and thus one can conclude that 5 or 10 dB difference would be less than subtle....

A brilliant piece of deduction. How do you do it Ethan?

Tim

 

[Golden]

I'm going to work with the 24/96 for the time being... I'll take all the advice and wisdom into account and see what I can muster...

 

[MCI2424]

You're the only one waiting. The train done gone by with whistle blowin'. Everyone saw it and it even run right over you, so I figured you saw it too...

What other languages are you fluent in? Can't think of any plainer way to communicate to you in English. My wife speaks French and her Spanish is pretty good. I could have her translate if you think that would help.

None of us do Braille though and I’m not sure how that would work on-line.

For the most part even if it appears I’m talking to you because I’ve included one of your quotes, I’m in fact talking around you to anyone else that might be following. It is probably impossible for me or anyone else to decompress a thread once you’ve posted. But it’s just my nature to try.

You don’t recognize when you’ve been corrected. You are slow, and unable or unwilling to consider that you’ve misunderstood. This is primarily because you have an axe to grind, and you have going back to your first posts. You are looking for conflict, so naturally you find it.

Take your own advise and go to another forum... bother some other people for a while.

WOW. Just WOW.

 

[evm1024]

Fascinating info Ethan. In addition to the central point, I also find the error correction observations particularly intriguing. Do you remember what year or issue of Stereo Review this was in? I’ve recently been delving into the workings of various error correction schemes and their impact on what we hear vs. what was recorded. Interesting stuff.

Somewhere in the mid '80s. I could not find it inn the list of reviews that Roger has on his site but then again it was not a review.

http://www.roger-russell.com/magrevsr2.htm

 

[Dr ZEE]

WOW. Just WOW.

That's RIGHT, damn it! Beck is being a mean nasty SOB here. Poor Tim G. Good thing IS that Beck is NOT pretending like all he is trying to do here is to have an "intelligent technical discussion" while "searching for the "truth"". Why not? My guess is - Because trying to have an intelligent technical discussion with a pretender is a very frustrating experience and it can only be continued for a short period of time.
OK, let's try it again.
Sooooo? A digital recorder just sees it as another wave form to be converted into a code? Did I get that right? ....hmmmm
What ever it sees - good for it, I could not care less. But from "seeing" to "thinking" is just a couple of feet walk. Right? - Right.
I wish it stop thinking, seeing and all the crap that it does. I wish it dead. Dead as dead can be. No seeing, no coding, no farting - no nothing. Dead that is. Free my people of the Devil's Switch.!
I love technical discussions too. I'm seeing things too sometimes. I see a big wave form coming
Here it comes. What Am I gonna' do with it?

 

[MCI2424]

That's RIGHT, damn it! Beck is being a mean nasty SOB here. Poor Tim G. Good thing IS that Beck is NOT pretending like all he is trying to do here is to have an "intelligent technical discussion" while "searching for the "truth"". Why not? My guess is - Because trying to have an intelligent technical discussion with a pretender is a very frustrating experience and it can only be continued for a short period of time.
OK, let's try it again.
Sooooo? A digital recorder just sees it as another wave form to be converted into a code? Did I get that right? ....hmmmm
What ever it sees - good for it, I could not care less. But from "seeing" to "thinking" is just a couple of feet walk. Right? - Right.
I wish it stop thinking, seeing and all the crap that it does. I wish it dead. Dead as dead can be. No seeing, no coding, no farting - no nothing. Dead that is. Free my people of the Devil's Switch.!
I love technical discussions too. I'm seeing things too sometimes. I see a big wave form coming
Here it comes. What Am I gonna' do with it?

Uhh...........Beck was wrong. What are you talking about?

What drugs ARE you on, anyway? Try making sense man.

 

[Tim Gillett]

I'm going to work with the 24/96 for the time being... I'll take all the advice and wisdom into account and see what I can muster...

Sure. Very hard to know from here exactly what you are hearing. It could be a hookup problem, or the limitations of the gear, or you may just have very good hearing acuity, or a combination of all of the above.
As Farview said, the copy will never be the same as the original and that applies right up to the best A/D converter in the world.


If perfection is what I'm after, I never even play my analog tape after it's been recorded, because each time I do, I erase some of the highs forever! In extreme cases, multiple playings of or more have been known build up losses as much as 0.1db and that's "easily detectable"!
I also hear rumours of a thing called a "head bump" in analog tape recording which gives unevenness in the bass response, sometimes by as much as , wait for it, 0.1db. But it's probably only that, a rumour.

Cheers and best wishes,

Tim

 

[Beck]

You know, I can almost tolerate a condescending attitude from a William F. Buckley type, who actually knows what he’s talking about.

But the Fred Flintstone type like “Gillett” (you know that laugh as he pats Barney or Wilma on the head, when it is actually Fred that doesn’t get it)… that somehow really gets under the skin. I think that’s a pretty universal reaction across many cultures.

How does that saying go?

“You don’t know what you don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know it.”

Something like that.

“Village Idiot” is probably a more familiar saying.

“Gillett” isn’t the first, and won’t be the last to underestimate the members of homerecording.com simply because of the name. On a forum called prorecording.com he would be the perfect gentleman.

I remember the old Steve Martin routine where he talks about how important a name is to an organization. He ponders, what if instead of names like First Federal, or American National, a bank chose to call itself simply Fred’s Bank?

Anyway, “Gillett” won’t get that joke either.

No one has any business posting anything but questions on an analog forum if they aren’t familiar with something as rudimentary as the headbump phenomenon in tape head design, or the gradual loss of high frequencies on a poorly maintained (not degaussed) tape path. A 3-minute google search will put these technical questions to rest.

So I’m thinkin’ no one is really that stupid without trying to be.

Conclusion:

In psychological terms “Gillett” is at the point with this user ID (one of his multiple personalities) that he wants to be punished... he wants the negative rep to go into the red. Though mentally healthy members of the forum know that rep points don't really mean a lot, "Gillett" attaches meaning to it, and that's what's important.

I know it sounds strange, and there are those who will want to try passing around the peace pipe yet again. Unfortunately it won’t work and will only prolong "Gillett's" agony. He feels dirty and different inside. To regain equilibrium and relieve the stress he’s now feeling from “The Naughty One’s” conduct, he really needs the forum community to unite and spank his little bottom. This will cause the bad “Gillett” to withdraw and allow the good "Gillett" to come up for air… be in control again for a while.

Until he gets what he needs, it will only get worse. Too simple, really… I don’t know why I didn’t see it before.

 

[Beck]

Uhh...........Beck was wrong. What are you talking about?

What drugs ARE you on, anyway? Try making sense man.

Once again MCI2424 seems to be reading a different thread, perhaps on a higher plain that we can’t achieve until we own (or claim to own) something made by Studer or MCI.

And as usual I have no idea what he (she) is talking about. But I can assure you when Beck bobbles on some technical point or makes a typo, it’s not that earth shattering to anyone but you, and I'm the first one to clarify or edit the offending typo before it has a chance to ruin someone’s recording session.

Some people might be flattered by your obsession, but seeing this and watching you cop my persona… cutting and pasting my arguments to use against other people (as you recently did with SouthSide Glen) in other areas of this bbs it’s really just kinda spooky. (Actually it was kinda funny too, as he pressed you for an explanation, you couldn’t elaborate because you have no working knowledge to explain your statements.) Oh what a tangled web we weave… indeed… yes, yes. You can’t pull anything on Glen either, dear.

There is only room for one Tim Beck… just as there is only room for one evm1024, DR ZEE, cjacek, A Reel Person, Ghost, Herm, FALKEN, Farview, etc, so you'll have to find yourself some other way than knitting together a persona from bits and peices of us.

Also, if I’m ever living at the Dakota on Manhattan's Upper West Side, opposite Central Park, with a girl named Yoko… and you leave work one day clocking out by signing your time card with my name… please don’t be offended later that night in front of the Dakota when you yell “Mr. Beck!” and I don’t turn around. It’s nothing personal.

This probably won’t happen, but I’m just sayin’… you know... just in case.

 

[MCI2424]

Once again MCI2424 seems to be reading a different thread, perhaps on a higher plain that we can’t achieve until we own (or claim to own) something made by Studer or MCI.

And as usual I have no idea what he (she) is talking about. But I can assure you when Beck bobbles on some technical point or makes a typo, it’s not that earth shattering to anyone but you, and I'm the first one to clarify or edit the offending typo before it has a chance to ruin someone’s recording session.

Some people might be flattered by your obsession, but seeing this and watching you cop my persona… cutting and pasting my arguments to use against other people (as you recently did with SouthSide Glen) in other areas of this bbs it’s really just kinda spooky. (Actually it was kinda funny too, as he pressed you for an explanation, you couldn’t elaborate because you have no working knowledge to explain your statements.) Oh what a tangled web we weave… indeed… yes, yes. You can’t pull anything on Glen either, dear.

There is only room for one Tim Beck… just as there is only room for one evm1024, DR ZEE, cjacek, A Reel Person, Ghost, Herm, FALKEN, Farview, etc, so you'll have to find yourself some other way than knitting together a persona from bits and peices of us.

Also, if I’m ever living at the Dakota on Manhattan's Upper West Side, opposite Central Park, with a girl named Yoko… and you leave work one day clocking out by signing your time card with my name… please don’t be offended later that night in front of the Dakota when you yell “Mr. Beck!” and I don’t turn around. It’s nothing personal.

This probably won’t happen, but I’m just sayin’… you know... just in case.

Another attempt to evade. Good going. Why not stick to the thread instead of being a complete dickhead?