recording using a (non-DAW) digital recorder, but using an analog console?

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christiandaelemans

christiandaelemans

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so i’m trying to upgrade my set up. i’ve used the cassette recorder, it broke, but my record is already digitized and i wanna move onto more tracks and get bigger sounds.

and what i’m noticing as i’m researching analog gear is that the desks are way way more reliable than the recorder side of things. tape machines will have transport issues, calibration issues, all sorts of issues. they’re the units doing all the work, so it’s only natural. but i’m wondering if using a digital recorder, like a piece of hardware with trims and cables and connectors, but using preamps and eqs from an old analog board would get a similar sound to recording to tape. just a curious thought i’m having. thanks.
 
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Sure. The Alesis HD24 is a good example of that. It doesn't have trim controls, but otherwise it's what you're looking for. Coincidentally, I have one for sale.
 
christiandaelemans said:
so i’m trying to upgrade my set up. i’ve used the cassette recorder, it broke, but my record is already digitized and i wanna move onto more tracks and get bigger sounds.

and what i’m noticing as i’m researching analog gear is that the desks are way way more reliable than the recorder side of things. tape machines will have transport issues, calibration issues, all sorts of issues. they’re the units doing all the work, so it’s only natural. but i’m wondering if using a digital recorder, like a piece of hardware with trims and cables and connectors, but using preamps and eqs from an old analog board would get a similar sound to recording to tape. just a curious thought i’m having. thanks.
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You know A digital recorder and a DAW on a Laptop are practically the same thing - but if you want to continue down your path a Zoom H6 has 4 Mic inputs - I assume you were recording on a 4 track Cassette Deck?
 
Papanate said:
You know A digital recorder and a DAW on a Laptop are practically the same thing - but if you want to continue down your path a Zoom H6 has 4 Mic inputs - I assume you were recording on a 4 track Cassette Deck?
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i’d like to move to more tracks, so 8 and above is what i’m looking for. i’m just wondering if it’s tape that is giving “that sound”, or if it’s the use of analog consoles that color the sound more. is tape just the subtle “film” that’s put over music?
 
christiandaelemans said:
i’d like to move to more tracks, so 8 and above is what i’m looking for. i’m just wondering if it’s tape that is giving “that sound”, or if it’s the use of analog consoles that color the sound more. is tape just the subtle “film” that’s put over music?
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You have a broken 8 track cassette? Those units have a sound created by the Cassette - analog boards have colorations depending on which one you get - if you describe your systems we could more easily identify what might work for you - I dont mean to rag - but if you got a DAW there are all kinds of coloration plugins ( Tape Deck Styles, Preamp Style, EQ styles) that can color your recordings exactly in the same way a Board and Cassette do -
 
Papanate said:
You have a broken 8 track cassette? Those units have a sound created by the Cassette - analog boards have colorations depending on which one you get - if you describe your systems we could more easily identify what might work for you - I dont mean to rag - but if you got a DAW there are all kinds of coloration plugins ( Tape Deck Styles, Preamp Style, EQ styles) that can color your recordings exactly in the same way a Board and Cassette do -
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i have a broken 4 track cassette, and i’m trying to expand to 8 tracks. eh, but i think i wanna keep with the analog stuff. it was a joy. it’s just a matter of not getting a dud who’s speed will crap out in a month. there’s a great feeling of satisfaction i get recording the analog way, it makes my room really feel like a “home studio”.
 
I'm still an HD24 guy. Simple and reliable
 
I have an hd24. Well, i did have till i loaned it to a friend who was old school and he loved it. Sort of like a tape recorder but no head cleaning. He passed away and ive never asked his widow if I can have it back. I cant imagine ever using it. Like another friend who restored a 1975 ford to brand new condition. I went for a ride. I had forgotten how noisy it was, how bumpy it was and how slow it was. He now has muscles in his arms through lack of power steering, yet its the best car he ever had. Old recording equipment is something you dont just use, but sort of get attached to!
 
christiandaelemans said:
i have a broken 4 track cassette, and i’m trying to expand to 8 tracks. eh, but i think i wanna keep with the analog stuff. it was a joy. it’s just a matter of not getting a dud who’s speed will crap out in a month. there’s a great feeling of satisfaction i get recording the analog way, it makes my room really feel like a “home studio”.
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For me, there's no contest. It's digital all the way. I have an old 4 channel Dokorder that no longer works, a Sony 2 track that works, and a HK stereo cassette that still works (sort of... the rewind belt turned to tar). The only time I use tape is to transfer stuff I find to digital.

The problem you're going to have with staying with tape is that you're dealing with 20 or more year old mechanical equipment, with rubber parts that degrade, and metal and plastic parts that can break and motors that can go dead. Like Rob said, it's like people who restore old cars. They're fun, but I'll be darned if I would have gotten in one and driven 11 straight hours to Florida. With my Taurus, I got to the hotel, went out for dinner and could still walk around!

I don't know how you normally work but you can use things like the HD24, or digital interfaces like the Audient EVO16, Scarlett 18i20 or Tascam 16x08 will let you immediately move to 8 channel recording and you're not limited in any way as to adding more. You can still use your old console, just set the gain for line input level. Mix it just like you would with your old setup. If you want to stay with an all in the box setup, a Tascam DP24SD or DP32SD lets you record 8 channels, and use up to 24 or 32 channels. I have a Zoom R24, which is about the size of a laptop, lets you do 8 channels at once. You can mix down in the box or move it to a DAW. You can find a used R24 for decent prices.

The nice thing about the all-in-one units is portability. I take a mixer for vocals, and have 7 channels left to record other instruments live. This is my setup at a jam session. An old Yamaha MX12/4 mixer, and my Zoom R24. It feeds the vocals to PA speakers, and records guitars, bass and drums. The whole thing easily fits in my trunk, mics, stands, recorder, mixer, power amp and cables/snake. The only thing I don't carry is the speakers for the PA. And at 44.1/16, I can record all 8 channels for 6 straight hours on a single 16GB SD card. You would need a box of C90 cassettes to do that at 3 3/4ips in one direction.

Zoom R24 Mobile.webp
 
when i monitored myself when recording into a 244, before it even hit tape, the sound was very nice sounding and pleasant, and it had a very low level background “tsssss”. is that a product of the mixer? because if that sound is solely due to the console, and using a digital recorder will basically freeze that sound as i track it then maybe a digital record is what i’d want. it may also be the headphone amp distorting pleasantly.

this is sort of a separate question, is there a way to digitize through a headphone amp? hooking up an interface via the “phones” out with maybe a very strong preamp that can get the signal up to level. i had a friend come over and digitize some of my stuff with me, he had a very strong preamp and was able to get a very warm sounding stereo signal straight from the headphones outs.
 
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If you can't capture that hiss, you could certainly replicate it, even without a computer. You might even be able to opt out of having the hiss when it suited you.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
If you can't capture that hiss, you could certainly replicate it, even without a computer. You might even be able to opt out of having the hiss when it suited you.
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i’d rather not use the computer too much, only when i’m finishing up and exporting everything to release. maybe do some final compression and limiting of everything. because i find that when i use stuff like that i can’t do repeatable things. i have too many options and i’m always wondering what could be better or more accurate. i’m a simple person, and having a DAW with all of its various options and effects and emulators, i can never choose. i just like a recorder, board, and an effects unit and working it all down.

the extra tracks would be a god send, but that hiss and analog warmth that i suspect comes a large amount from old consoles could outweigh the lack of tape compression you get with those digital recorders.
 
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A DAW will save you a lot of money.
I find the SSL Big Six gives a very nice analogue mixer front end to the DAW.
The HD24 is long discontinued, but I did come accross a modern Flash equivalent recently.
 
To answer your original question Chris' "does tape contribute significantly to the vintage sound?" Yes. I would say 90% but some desk pre amps* might be a bit 'bad' compared to modern stuff and knock that to 85%.

The technical shortcomings of tape are legion. The frequency response is only (fairly!) flat at -10VU (-20 at speeds below 15ips) but even so the bass end is still 'lumpy' due to head contour effects, maybe it its those bumps in the bass that produces that "warmf" that tapeophiles find so attractive?

Above -10 VU you start to get HF "squash" as the HF is progressively compressed as the recording level increases. Distortion, mainly 3rd harmonic, also rises with level and at 0VU is around 2%. These distortions are of course different in level and onset for different tape types, heads bias and EQ settings...There is no such thing as "A" tape sound! The least of your worries is perhaps tape hiss since this can be removed digitally but of course, the engineers of old spent a huge amount of time and money reducing it with Dolby A and DBX.

*Elderly pres had poor distortion figures due to the use of valves. When transistors came in that did not get a lot better because a 2 or 3 transistor pre amp (with a front end transformer) had limited open loop gain and so could not employ much Negative FeedBack to reduce distortion. Such pres probably produced 0.1%THD at 0dBu whereas that from even a middle of the road AI would be 0.01% or better.

I apologize to folks like the eminent Sweetbeats who love this old kit and lavish sheds of time and money keeping it going but them's the facts. In the end, if you like it? Do it!

Just my 2 penn 'oth.


Dave.
 
christiandaelemans said:
i’d rather not use the computer too much, only when i’m finishing up and exporting everything to release. maybe do some final compression and limiting of everything. because i find that when i use stuff like that i can’t do repeatable things. i have too many options and i’m always wondering what could be better or more accurate. i’m a simple person, and having a DAW with all of its various options and effects and emulators, i can never choose. i just like a recorder, board, and an effects unit and working it all down.

the extra tracks would be a god send, but that hiss and analog warmth that i suspect comes a large amount from old consoles could outweigh the lack of tape compression you get with those digital recorders.
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I've got a simple solution if you find having a laundry list of plug-ins too daunting. Simply pick out the 5 or 6 that you like and delete all the rest from your system. They are really no different than having a half dozen hardware units in a rack. Pick a compressor or two, an couple of EQs, a reverb, limiter, maybe an amp sim, and get rid of the rest. It's like people who complain that having the ability to use 10000 tracks on a single project is a problem. They would rather have 4 and have to move things around. DUH! Just use a little self control.

If you stick to a few things and use them exclusively, you'll get familiar with them. Find a few settings that works, and save them as presets. It's no different than spinning a couple of knobs and then leaving it alone.

As for the "sound of tape", Dave is spot on. I've seen results of tape decks that were good to 22kHz, but it was at -20dB. At -10dB it started to drop at about 12K. At 0dB, the top end rolled off starting around 5K and was down well over 10dB at 10K. So if you were using the typical process of pushing the tape at +4 or 5, your highs are decimated, and your distortion is in the "percents" range, rather in the .01% range. Dynamic range is limited by the headroom. It gets progressively less linear as you max out the signal level.

It's the sound that a great many of us grew up with, because it was the best available. That doesn't mean it was perfect, but we didn't have a better alternative. It beat wire recorders, wax cylinders, and shellac 78s recorded into a horn.
 
I have access to all kinds of plug-ins, but I just use the same two (an eq and a compressor) on channels 95% of the time, with two or three others for special cases.
 
"It's the sound that a great many of us grew up with, because it was the best available."

Indeed it was Rich but most people did not hear that music with even remote fidelity. Mainly from an AM radio. 8" speaker at best with nothing much below 120Hz and cut off at 4-5kHz. Vinyl was potentially better but what was most folk's playback system? A record player with a 5x3 elliptical speaker and a one valve amplifier. Yes, juke boxes had better bass but HF response and distortion was little better. But we did not care! It was Rock and Roll!

In parallel with this mass of audio mediocrity there were a few stalwarts trying to reproduce records at the levels of quality they would have been in RCA's VIP listening suite. Bass down to 40Hz and an 18kHz upper end. But THOSE systems showed up the shortcoming of the whole mixer/tape/vinyl chain.

These guys were mainly interested in acoustic "classical" music and jumped into 16 bit digital as soon as they could !

Dave.
 
Having got 14 cabinets flown, stacked and wired, I realised I had not labelled the cables, so I pressed play and one by one connected the feeder cables to identify them. 4 were flown JBL VRX 18" subs. I was really surprised how nice they sounded on full range - like Dave says, this really was the kind of sound I had in my house in the 70s. Plenty of bass and with the tone control, it was quite listenable. After listening to the sub for ten minutes or so, when I found the full range feeders, the bright, modern, cuttingly sizzly sound we now take for normal was pretty difficult to listen to.
 
I have cracked it! The OP needs a Sound Devices MixPre 10M . If that is too pricey the 6M is still fabulous.

Dave.
 
Guys. He’s not asking “should I got use digital or tape?”, he’s asking if the digital recorder + mixer will give a similar analog sound as tape machine + mixer. The answer is no it will not. It might give a sound you like, but not the tape sound.

As yes, mixers have a sound too, and certainly tape + mixer is a big part of the sound. But digital + analog mixer does not sound like tape + mixer at all.
 
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