Tascam M-30 Overdubbing Questions

[RRuskin]

The Mackie preamps might be a bit better than the Tascam but it's routing isn't all that great.

 

[Jzoha18]

I was never crazy about the Sonics of the CR-1604…or the construction. Or the I.O flexibility. I like a vintage Teac/Tascam mixer better.

I just have had this near mint M-30 just sitting for so long I felt bad. If I could get it configured with those patchbays I'd be happy never touching the Mackie again

 

[Jzoha18]

The Mackie preamps might be a bit better than the Tascam but it's routing isn't all that great.

Could I use the Mackie for effects sends it has with the m-30?

 

[RRuskin]

I'm sure you could but in your position, I'd probably track with the Mackie and mix with the M30. Or I'd get some good outboard mic preamps, use them to track while monitoring/mixing through the M30.

 

[sweetbeats]

The Mackie preamps might be a bit better than the Tascam but it's routing isn't all that great.

All depends on what “better” means to you. Sterile comes to mind. And that’s an okay thing for somebody or certain things.

 

[sweetbeats]

Could I use the Mackie for effects sends it has with the m-30?

I think you’re complicating things by doing that.

 

[sweetbeats]

I just have had this near mint M-30 just sitting for so long I felt bad. If I could get it configured with those patchbays I'd be happy never touching the Mackie again

What is the reason for having to hav the patchbays?

 

[RRuskin]

All depends on what “better” means to you. Sterile comes to mind. And that’s an okay thing for somebody or certain things.

Cleaner, better transient response. Tascam never made a micpre that had much in the way of "punch."

 

[Jzoha18]

What is the reason for having to hav the patchbays?

The patchbays were to make switching multitrack decks and 15 different synthesizers easier on one mixer

 

[Jzoha18]

I think you’re complicating things by doing that.

I could see that

 

[Jzoha18]

I

I'm sure you could but in your position, I'd probably track with the Mackie and mix with the M30. Or I'd get some good outboard mic preamps, use them to track while monitoring/mixing through the M30.

This isn't a bad idea. I recorded with the m-30 once and I found it very pleasant. Love the EQ. Like the tascam M-208 EQ but not a noisey shitbox like the M-208

 

[BeatleFred]

Bumping up an old discussion- it might be several years old, but thats ok, some very useful information can be found from the
knowledgeable folks who took the time to describe all the various details back then, which does not go to waste when someone such
as myself, who recently acquired an M-30, is trying to becoming better familiarized with all its signal routing functions and so forth.

In my case, I am starting out in a very simple way- before I even get into trying to record any instruments, I just want to review the basic steps
of how to input a source (a cd player) and route the music cd to headphones and speakers.

There does not appear to be any stereo inputs on the M-30 so I just connected the left & right channels of the cd player to Line In 1 & 2
on the mixer, and just use channel assign 1 and 2 which seemed to allow me to hear the music in stereo thru headphones without needing
to pan each channel hard left and right as I thought would be required.

Next step was listening to the music cd going into the mixer and out to monitor speakers. I know that cd's are line level, so I was not sure if an'
amp was really needed to drive the speakers, or if the mixer's preamps had enough gain to hear the music loud enough without needing to turn the faders
up too high.

It seemed like an amp would be beneficial, so I did connect a vintage Roland SPA-120, which was the only amp I could use anyway, as the monitor speakers
only use 1/4" jacks (unlike regular stereo hi fi equipment that nomally use bare wires to connect to speaker terminals).

Then I compared the volume level of the music cd thru headphones (BeyerDynamic DT-770) with the same sound coming thru the speakers.

Being late at night, I wanted the sound to be heard louder thru the 'phones, and not too loud thru the speakers, but when I tried adjusting the
faders and knobs, I noticed the levels affected BOTH the 'phones and the speakers in the same way.

I tried reading thru the M-30 manual, and in some ways, its very detailed and logical, but in other ways, I wish they had a separate Quick Start guide so that a novice can resolve an issue without it turning into a time consuming effort when that manual was written back in '82.

Rather than strain my eyes & brain trying to pinpoint the info in the manual, I just reconnected the M-30 to the speakers using the SUBMIX OUT, instead of the Monitor Out (via Rca to 1/4" cables) and finally success- doing this allowed me to separate the headphone level from the monitor speakers, so that I can adjust them independently of each other.

Hopefully, I can build up some momentum, because there is lots left to learn and do, its frustrating to consume hours to simply do what I described above, but I suppose we all have to start somewhere and you just have to learn by doing.

I guess the Point is: As nice as it is to have the Op Manual for the M-30, I wish they could have a section where simple things are mentioned, in this case, just tell the user, if you want the headphone level independent from the speaker's volume, then use the Mixer's Submix Output, instead of the Monitor Output, rather than have so much info buried within a whole bunch of technical details throughout all the pages.

I also have an M-106, so I think I will try the same thing tonight with the headphones and speakers and see how it compares to the M-30.

 

[sweetbeats]

…I just connected the left & right channels of the cd player to Line In 1 & 2…use channel assign 1 and 2 which seemed to allow me to hear the music in stereo thru headphones without needing

to pan each channel hard left and right as I thought would be required.

Both the manual and sales brochure explain that when only one channel ASSIGN button is latched on an input channel, the signal goes only to that buss, and if two or more ASSIGN buttons are latched then the PAN control is active, sweeping the signal between busses 1 & 3 (L) and 2 & 4 (R).

I know that cd's are line level, so I was not sure if an amp was really needed to drive the speakers, or if the mixer's preamps had enough gain to hear the music loud enough without needing to turn the faders up too high.

You already answered your own question (by realizing you couldn’t just directly connect the line level outputs of the console to passive speakers), but to reinforce your conclusion, that just doesn’t work. At all. Full stop. Think of it this way: the line level outputs of the M-30 are -10dBv nominal level. If I did my math right, that’s equivalent to 0.000166 watts. When was the last time you saw an amp rated for power in the 10 thousands of a watt…right? Never. We would consider a 1 watt amp to be quite small (even though 1 watt of power can make a very loud sound depending on how close you are to a speaker, and how efficient the speaker is), but 1/10,000 of that power is not going to make those voice coils budge. So…no…line level is not likely to make a passive set of speakers work in any usable way. Of course the example above is missing all sorts of clarifying factors and is a coarse generalization for the sake of brevity, but you get the point. Your passive speakers need a power amplifier, not a line level amplifier.

Being late at night, I wanted the sound to be heard louder thru the 'phones, and not too loud thru the speakers, but when I tried adjusting the faders and knobs, I noticed the levels affected BOTH the 'phones and the speakers in the same way.

The MONITOR level or SUBMIX MASTER controls adjust the level to both the MONITOR OUT and headphone output jacks. Think of those controls as respective overall level controls for both ways to listen. The HEADPHONES level control is a post MONITOR level/SUBMIX MASTER level control for the headphones. So if you want the monitor speakers quieter and the headphones louder, if you’re monitoring the MONITOR path, turn the MONITOR level pot down and the HEADPHONE level control up. Same thing if you’re monitoring the SUBMIX buss…turn down the SUBMIX MASTER pot and turn up the HEADPHONE level control.

I tried reading thru the M-30 manual, and in some ways, its very detailed and logical, but in other ways, I wish they had a separate Quick Start guide so that a novice can resolve an issue without it turning into a time consuming effort…

Two things: do you have the sales brochure? That might be a helpful stepping stone to study that. And secondly, whether you’re referencing the full operations manual or the brochure, study either with the M-30 in front of you powered up with sources available and connected and a means to monitor the outputs, so as you read you can try out what you’re reading. This will help the information to be better understood and internalized.

Rather than strain my eyes & brain trying to pinpoint the info in the manual, I just reconnected the M-30 to the speakers using the SUBMIX OUT, instead of the Monitor Out (via Rca to 1/4" cables) and finally success- doing this allowed me to separate the headphone level from the monitor speakers, so that I can adjust them independently of each other.

Yes this is a way to separate the two, but of course this only works if the headphones are monitoring the MONITOR path, vs the SUBMIX buss.

Hopefully, I can build up some momentum, because there is lots left to learn and do, its frustrating to consume hours to simply do what I described above, but I suppose we all have to start somewhere and you just have to learn by doing.

I’ve never wondered how many thousands of hours I’ve spent reading, consulting helpers, practicing, struggling, making mistakes, reading more, etc, etc, etc over the past couple-three decades…but if you add in the time spent repairing and modifying equipment, building stuff, on top of the studying and learning, I estimate it’s tens of thousands of hours. And truly I’m nothing more than a hobbyist. But in my case it’s driven by a natural curiosity of how different devices work and how their features differ and are unique and useful…but simply put, while I have a decent amount of knowledge now that makes it pretty fast and easy to just look at an unfamiliar console whether analog or digital, and be able to jump in and find my way around…or look at schematics and have some usable understanding from the get-go how it works and be able to follow the signal…which is great, but, YES it gets in the way of just using the stuff. So I understand your consternation. I think I enjoy the learning and tinkering enough that the impediment it is to making more music doesn’t bother me terribly. But I always feel some level of anxiousness about getting to the music. It’s driven a number of decisions in the past few years to cut bait on some projects or accept gross imperfections for the sake of forging ahead on the big picture.

 

[BeatleFred]

Wow, great info, SB, thanks so much for your guidance. I will continue along and keep you posted as I hopefully make progress. I appreciate your assistance to steer me in the right path, cheers.

 

[BeatleFred]

PS: Just to clarify, yes, my previous post was focused on getting the headphone music louder and the monitor speakers, which is playing the same music cd, softer.

I don't know if I missed something, but I can't get any sound in the headphones despite the headphone knob being up to max. The only way to get sound in the 'phones is to turn the Monitor knob up, but, doing that ALSO increases the volume thru the speakers, so I can't use them independently when the speakers are connected to the M-30 via the Monitor outs, as opposed to the Submix Outs. The headphones are connected to the M30 headphone jack. Maybe I can try connecting to an MH-40 headphone Amp instead? Since the cd player is connected to Line In 1 and 2, I can increase the volume with the 1 and 2 orange gain/pan knobs as well, but again, seems like no headphone volume unless the blue Monitor knob is turned up as well.

 

[sweetbeats]

So am I understanding correctly your HEADPHONE level control does nothing?

 

[BeatleFred]

Yes the headphone knob itself does not increase the volume, it only does so when the Monitor knob is turned up. In order to separate the headphone level from the speakers volume level when playing music is to switch from the Monitor out jacks to the Submix Out jacks. When that is done, the headphones still need the Monitor knob turned up, but the Monitor knob wont affect the speakers anymore, instead- the Submix Master knob will control the speaker Loudness level.

Ps: The Roland SPA-120 power amp does not have any volume controls, I suppose it might have been designed that way when normally partnered with the guitar preamp Roland SIP-300, but I dont need the preamp whereas I need a power amp with 1/4" connector to drive the un-self-powered monitors, so the volume control comes from the M-30.

 

[RRuskin]

The headphone volume pot controls the output of the headphone out jack on the right front panel of the mixer. The source for that output is the Bass/submix switch next to the volume pot.

 

[BeatleFred]

The headphone volume pot controls the output of the headphone out jack on the right front panel of the mixer. The source for that output is the Bass/submix switch next to the volume pot.

When headphones are plugged into the M-30's front jacks, my observation is that the Monitor knob has to be turned up in order to get sound thru the headphones, if the Monitor knob is down (off) the headphone knob will not put out any sound at all by itself. The orange pan/gain knobs also increase the headphone volume for the channels that the cd player is connected to.

The Submix knob has no effect on the headphones, Submix knob only controls the volume thru the speakers when connected to the Submix Outs (as opposed to the Monitor Outs). The two blue knobs also increase volume thru the speakers, corresponding to the two channels the cd player is connected to. Also- sound is heard thru the speakers if in Pre or Post position, but goes off if in Tape position.

Thats why I connected the speakers to the Submix outs- so that I could adjust the headphone volume and the speaker volume independently form each other. If I connected the speakers to the Monitor Outs instead, then headphones and speakers are tied together, as they both are controlled by the Monitor level knob.

 

[sweetbeats]

Re-read what I said earlier…and look at the Block Diagram…the headphone level control follows the MONITOR level control. So if you sweep the MONITOR level control off, full CCW, of course the headphone level control will do nothing.

I encourage you to do your due-diligence and study the manual while exercising its instruction with the console powered in front of you. Pretty much the conditions you are describing present as normal operation, and I want for you to become familiar with those controls and operations.