Tascam M-30 Overdubbing Questions

J

Jzoha18

Member
Hello, I have been trying out a mint M-30 I got back in December with my A-2340 and I really love it but it's architecture is a little confusing and after reading some old threads and the manual I'm a little lost on how exactly I can record and monitor playback for overdubbing without repatching. I have up until now simplified my recording setup with my decks by using a split console setup on a Mackie CR1604.

Firstly I made a song basically running the M-30 like you would any split console. I had the direct outs feeding the deck channel 1-4 and had my tape returns feeding the line is on channel 5-8 on the M-30. This is what I discovered. So the submix section and the channel faders are both controlling levels into the deck as well as panning, having the submix set to post on all 8 so I can track with EQ and mix the returns with EQ as well. I successfully finished a song that included collapsing tracks (submix output into channel 4) and 3 additional tracks on channel 1-3. Basically I balanced the submix level controls and fine tuned the levels on channel faders 5-8 with EQ on the strips but panning on the submix. It appears the channel pan pots do nothing in my configuration. So let me get to my questions. My apologies I think it's important I highlight what I have figured out so far.

I followed the manuals patching for a 4 track setup using buss outs and tape ins and figured out how to get the assign switches and channel pan pots to feed each channel on the deck as well but after tracking one channel I realized the submix can't playback channel one while I Track to channel 2 on the deck without re patching to channel 2 manually. I've never been able to get this to work on this mixer or my old beat up M-208. I think my major disconnect with these older tascam boards comes from my experience with portastudio cue systems. The system where you can record a track. Monitor it while simply panning channel 1 hard right to track to channel 2 without any repatching. I guess my ultimate question is whether this sort of workflow is possible on the M-30? From all I'm reading it seems it is and that was the whole point of this insanely versatile open ended mixer but it's simply lost on me. Sorry for the long post but I'd like to know what I'm missing.
 
You can independently monitor your tape machine by bringing its outputs in through the tape in jacks. The 8X2 submixer has a "tape" position for each pot to accommodate monitoring.
 
RRuskin said:
You can independently monitor your tape machine by bringing its outputs in through the tape in jacks. The 8X2 submixer has a "tape" position for each pot to accommodate monitoring.
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I tried this but it appears I can't monitor from channel 1 of the submixer while tracking to channel 2 on the deck. At least not from channel strip 1. I'm using the headphones on the M-30 but th manual describes a headphone amplifier or Poweramp driving speakers. Is that relevant?
 
Where do you have the submix panpot? Is the headphone switch in the submix position? Have you tried connecting the monitor out to amp to see if it makes any difference?
 
Not sure this will help as its been a long time. I owned an M-35 which has more monitor and eq options than the M-30. I am strictly going off memory, but tracking on a channel strip and monitoring tape from a different channel, the tape channel was heard by flipping the submix (or monitor) switch to Tape. The track was heard by flipping the monitor to Buss (I assume Pre or Post on the M-30). RRuskin mentions tape using the tape inputs also.

On the tape machine, do you have to select Source or Tape?
 
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RRuskin said:
Where do you have the submix panpot? Is the headphone switch in the submix position? Have you tried connecting the monitor out to amp to see if it makes any difference?
Click to expand...
fstrat76 said:
Not sure this will help as its been a long time. I owned an M-35 which has more monitor and eq options than the M-30. I am strictly going off memory, but tracking on a channel strip and monitoring tape from a different channel, the tape channel was heard by flipping the submix (or monitor) switch to Tape. The track was heard by flipping the monitor to Buss (I assume Pre or Post on the M-30). RRuskin mentions tape using the tape inputs also.

On the tape machine, do you have to select Source or Tape?
Click to expand...
The tape machine is a Teac A2340 so I do have a source/tape switch yes
 
So if I was running a 4-track multitrack machine with an M-30, I would connect the group LINE OUT 1~4 jacks from the console to the track 1~4 inputs on the tape machine, allowing me to get any input channel or combination of input channels to any track or combination of tracks without repatching, and connect the tape machine outputs 1~4 to the TAPE IN 5~8 jacks on the console. Then I would connect the group AUX 1~4 out jacks (which just parallel each LINE OUT jack) to the TAPE IN 1~4 jacks. Why? Well if you do that then you always have the ability to monitor any of the group outputs and tape machine outputs simultaneously using the SUBMIX section (by setting the source select switches to TAPE). Alternatively or in addition to this, since the A-2340 is a 3-head machine and has per track simul-sync capability, you can pretty much monitor anything coming off tape or going to tape via the tape deck outputs connected to the console TAPE jacks via the SUBMIX section. Having the group outputs connected to those other 4 TAPE jacks just offers some potential convenience if needed. So, really, by using the sync, input and repro monitoring functions on the tape deck, and monitoring those 4 tape machine channels via the TAPE 5~8 jacks, that leaves SUBMIX channels 1~4 free to serve for individual PRE/POST monitoring of input channels 1~4. You can use the DIRECT OUT or CUE out jacks to feed effects processors as well and bring those returns in on any open input channels, assign those channels with dry channels to a track or tracks wet or just monitor and track dry with a wet monitor. You’ve got additional flexibility during tracking and overdubbing if you’re not using all the groups to use groups as sends, cue feeds and whatnot, or create a separate submix and connect the monitor out to the SUBMIX IN and monitor with your SUBMIX mix…options. During tracking and overdubs I’d just stay over in the SUBMIX section. You’d have to be careful not to set input channels to REMIX and assign to the respective group 1~4, because that would create a feedback loop. But in this way during tracking and overdubs the monitor source would primarily be the SUBMIX section. So you should be able to monitor sends and returns from the tape deck, as well as individual inputs via the SUBMIX section, then when it’s time to mixdown you switch your input channels to REMIX, assign to groups 1 & 2 and switch your global monitor source to MONITOR. There’s enough there the get done what you need to get done especially if you use what’s there creatively. It would be helpful if there was a mono function and mute controls on the SUBMIX channels, but those would be niceties. The SUBMIX section is maybe a little less confusing if instead of seeing it as this bunch of knobs over to the right, pretend the 8 stacked knobs are spread out across the 8 input channels, one stack per channel; a stereo AUX buss that sources it’s respective input either PRE fader, POST fader, or can monitor the respective TAPE jack independent of the input channel source. That’s exactly what the SUBMIX is…it’s really just a stereo AUX buss switchable pre/post with inline monitor capability of the TAPE jacks.



The M-30 is an interesting console…I was studying the control surface and block diagram today…and looking through the PCB parts lists…so it carries forward some of the limitations of earlier generation Teac consoles with some limited gain staging and bussing architecture, but offers some expanded inline access…and the interesting cue/aux/eff bussing (SUBMIX section)…like there’s a fair amount of shared functionality, which has pros and cons. The EQ is expanded over those earlier generation Teac mixers. Anyway, it does pose a little bit of a puzzle in some ways to figure out how best to utilize its features because, like most period Teac/Tascam products it has some unique and useful features, but you have to think outside the box because that’s what they were doing when they designed it I think, and also there’s sometimes a terminology hurdle to get over. Like I look at the labeling of some of the controls or access points and I go “okay…what does that mean?” So that’s why I go to the Block Diagram because it shows you graphically what everything does. I had to do the same thing with my 244. The M-30 utilizes the TL072 opamp pretty heavily which is not a bad thing IMO, haters can hate, and also relies on the 4556 for output drivers…an upgrade from the 4558/4559 used in the earlier generation. This is basically the same profile the M-50/M-500 consoles used. Outside of that there isn’t much of anything remarkable about the signal path…it’s pretty simple which is not a bad thing. It *does* retain the transformer coupling of the mic amp from the earlier generation though…it’s kind of a generational hybrid. And the components on the PCBs are laid out all spacious and organized, like the Model 5 (and probably the M-35 too)…there was a shift in manufacturing and assembly ideology around that time I think and the M-30 precedes a shift to some value engineering in the board layouts. But the M-30 doesn’t have the modular type frame design like the Model 5 and M-35 consoles, the trade-off being the M-30 is lighter and has a smaller footprint. ANYway…I’ll stop there for now.
 
Maybe I’m missing something but- what are you trying to accomplish with the routing exactly?

You could do something like assign tracks 1-4 to buss 1-2 (panned hard L-R) and tracks 5-8 to buss 3-4 (panned hard L-R). Press the buss buttons off/on, depending on what you want to hear. Use the buss outputs appropriate for whatever you want to accomplish, etc.

lots of other ways to go, but not sure what you want to do, or what the problem is- other than the routing of these mixers is confusing because you can kind of do whatever you want with them. Unlike modern mixers, where they are designed to only do whatever they tell you to.
 
... basically if you set it up like I noted above- by pressing the buss switches in or out- you’d be switching from record to playback. As in- depress the buss switches for 1-4 in for recording, then out for monitoring w/ the buss switches for 5-8 in. Essentially turning the channels “off” and “on” as needed.

so if I wanted to overdub on track 1 while listening to track 2- I would keep all buss switches out/off, except track 1 and track 6.
 
sweetbeats said:
So if I was running a 4-track multitrack machine with an M-30, I would connect the group LINE OUT 1~4 jacks from the console to the track 1~4 inputs on the tape machine, allowing me to get any input channel or combination of input channels to any track or combination of tracks without repatching, and connect the tape machine outputs 1~4 to the TAPE IN 5~8 jacks on the console. Then I would connect the group AUX 1~4 out jacks (which just parallel each LINE OUT jack) to the TAPE IN 1~4 jacks. Why? Well if you do that then you always have the ability to monitor any of the group outputs and tape machine outputs simultaneously using the SUBMIX section (by setting the source select switches to TAPE). Alternatively or in addition to this, since the A-2340 is a 3-head machine and has per track simul-sync capability, you can pretty much monitor anything coming off tape or going to tape via the tape deck outputs connected to the console TAPE jacks via the SUBMIX section. Having the group outputs connected to those other 4 TAPE jacks just offers some potential convenience if needed. So, really, by using the sync, input and repro monitoring functions on the tape deck, and monitoring those 4 tape machine channels via the TAPE 5~8 jacks, that leaves SUBMIX channels 1~4 free to serve for individual PRE/POST monitoring of input channels 1~4. You can use the DIRECT OUT or CUE out jacks to feed effects processors as well and bring those returns in on any open input channels, assign those channels with dry channels to a track or tracks wet or just monitor and track dry with a wet monitor. You’ve got additional flexibility during tracking and overdubbing if you’re not using all the groups to use groups as sends, cue feeds and whatnot, or create a separate submix and connect the monitor out to the SUBMIX IN and monitor with your SUBMIX mix…options. During tracking and overdubs I’d just stay over in the SUBMIX section. You’d have to be careful not to set input channels to REMIX and assign to the respective group 1~4, because that would create a feedback loop. But in this way during tracking and overdubs the monitor source would primarily be the SUBMIX section. So you should be able to monitor sends and returns from the tape deck, as well as individual inputs via the SUBMIX section, then when it’s time to mixdown you switch your input channels to REMIX, assign to groups 1 & 2 and switch your global monitor source to MONITOR. There’s enough there the get done what you need to get done especially if you use what’s there creatively. It would be helpful if there was a mono function and mute controls on the SUBMIX channels, but those would be niceties. The SUBMIX section is maybe a little less confusing if instead of seeing it as this bunch of knobs over to the right, pretend the 8 stacked knobs are spread out across the 8 input channels, one stack per channel; a stereo AUX buss that sources it’s respective input either PRE fader, POST fader, or can monitor the respective TAPE jack independent of the input channel source. That’s exactly what the SUBMIX is…it’s really just a stereo AUX buss switchable pre/post with inline monitor capability of the TAPE jacks.



The M-30 is an interesting console…I was studying the control surface and block diagram today…and looking through the PCB parts lists…so it carries forward some of the limitations of earlier generation Teac consoles with some limited gain staging and bussing architecture, but offers some expanded inline access…and the interesting cue/aux/eff bussing (SUBMIX section)…like there’s a fair amount of shared functionality, which has pros and cons. The EQ is expanded over those earlier generation Teac mixers. Anyway, it does pose a little bit of a puzzle in some ways to figure out how best to utilize its features because, like most period Teac/Tascam products it has some unique and useful features, but you have to think outside the box because that’s what they were doing when they designed it I think, and also there’s sometimes a terminology hurdle to get over. Like I look at the labeling of some of the controls or access points and I go “okay…what does that mean?” So that’s why I go to the Block Diagram because it shows you graphically what everything does. I had to do the same thing with my 244. The M-30 utilizes the TL072 opamp pretty heavily which is not a bad thing IMO, haters can hate, and also relies on the 4556 for output drivers…an upgrade from the 4558/4559 used in the earlier generation. This is basically the same profile the M-50/M-500 consoles used. Outside of that there isn’t much of anything remarkable about the signal path…it’s pretty simple which is not a bad thing. It *does* retain the transformer coupling of the mic amp from the earlier generation though…it’s kind of a generational hybrid. And the components on the PCBs are laid out all spacious and organized, like the Model 5 (and probably the M-35 too)…there was a shift in manufacturing and assembly ideology around that time I think and the M-30 precedes a shift to some value engineering in the board layouts. But the M-30 doesn’t have the modular type frame design like the Model 5 and M-35 consoles, the trade-off being the M-30 is lighter and has a smaller footprint. ANYway…I’ll stop there for now.
Click to expand...
Incredibly late reply but after considering selling this mixer for extra cash and saving up for a soundcraft 200 for my Otari i decided i will replace the mackie with it for a few weeks and see what happens and ill use this post very carefully. Id like to ask though as the manual is slightly confusing to me. In a 4 and 8 track configuration how many effects sends are possible on this board? I ask because the mackie i at least have 4 parameters for 4 mono sends which is all im looking for. It would be a pity to have such a warm mixer for the decks but with only 1-2 sends possible. I know this board predates the mackie by almost a decade but thats my main concern besides the fact that while my CR1604 is very clean sounding and simple and reliable its got one of the worst EQ's ever built by man and ive been very bold to even mix off it since last winter...but i did it!!! hahah
 
Yes. In fact, the submix section in the M-30 is basically an onboard Model 1. Fostex made a similar unit that only took up 1 rack space.
 
RRuskin said:
Yes. In fact, the submix section in the M-30 is basically an onboard Model 1. Fostex made a similar unit that only took up 1 rack space.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry could you describe how this would be patched into the m-30 for sends? The mixer will be doing 8 and 4 in track work.
 
Several different ways. Direct outs from the M30 to the model 1 inputs give you a post fader/eq aux send.
Tape machine outs to Model 1 ins. Model foldbacks to M30 tape ins gives you a pre-fader aux send. Your processing devices can be brought back to a 2nd Model 1 for bringing back to the Model 30 buss ins you use to mix through.
 
I was never crazy about the sonics of the CR-1604…or the construction. Or the I/O flexibility. I like a vintage Teac/Tascam mixer better.
 
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