The New Tone Thread

[minerman]

Yup, I agree. Modern amps that derive their voicing from the preamp section aren't utilizing power section saturation, so a simple master volume does the trick. Those amps sound great at lower volumes. My JVM, an amp that gets just about all of it's goods from it's preamp design, sounds way better at low volumes than my JCM 800, JMP, or Plexi. They're essentially useless unless they're breaking windows. I don't see how power scaling can remedy that because sheer brute force is what makes them what they are. It's entirely possible that I just don't understand power scaling though. It just seems like another gimmick.

I think you're probably right on the older style amps Greg, maybe the power scaling thing wouldn't work with them to deliver the goods, I dunno myself....I'd love to try an amp out with the power scaling thing just to see what it actually does in a recording...

I mean if this crazy thread has taught us anything, I think some of those teachings could be that speakers, the number of speakers, the box they sit in, and volume matters. That is if you want the gigantic blaring amp kind sound. But that's just one kind of sound. There are a lot of colors in the spectrum. A Blues or Jazz guy isn't going to want a Plexi full stack kind of sound.

I've definitely learned (most of it the hard way too...lol) that the size of the cab, number of speakers, does matter. It makes a huge difference. When I switched from the ampsims to real amps about 2-3 years ago, I started with a Blackstar HT-5 with a single 12" speaker...Bought a 1x12 extension cab so I could put it in another room, & while it did improve my tones, it still wasn't what I was after....Went through the ISO cab thing, & combined with my low-watt amps, did a pretty good job (the big, heavy home-made ISO originally started as just a box filled with Roxul that I stuck my 1x12 cab inside of...I ended up making an inner box with a speaker baffle, & that did work pretty good, it was as close as I've came to "that" sound until I got my 4x12....the Randall ISO cab I have is pure shit as far as recorded tones)....But when I finally got the DSL100 & 4x12, my recorded tones instantly changed...So yeah, if you want the big, cranked amp sound in your recordings, you pretty much have to use a big, cranked up amp...

If I ever start building my 50w Plexi clone, and it works, my next build will be a Fender Twin kind of thing. Because if there's one thing my stupid loud Marshalls don't do very well, it's a surfy Fender clean.

I figured you'd already sourced your parts dude...Please do keep us updated on your build when you do start on it, I'm sure you'll do a fine job on it, & it could be really valuable to people about repairing our own amps, saving us all $$$, plus learning the ins/outs of the amp(s) at the same time...

On the Fender sound, I've got a decent approximation with my Tweaker, but that said, it goes back to the little amp trying to sound like a big amp...The T15 does pretty fair, but of course, it's a far cry from the real deal...


Gonna go shower, shave then go pick the new girlfriend up, taking her out tonight, Valentine's Day ya know???? Dunno what time I'll be back home, but I will be back sometime...

 

[miroslav]

Gonna go shower, shave then go pick the new girlfriend up, taking her out tonight, Valentine's Day ya know???? Dunno what time I'll be back home, but I will be back sometime...

You still think of her as "new"...and not just as the girlfriend?
Sounds like a lack of commitment there.

I guess now I know one person who is going to say "I love you" tonight and get some Valentine's Day sex.

I'm snowed in pretty much for the weekend.
Wait...where's that SI photo of Hannah Davis......

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

Do you think it would be possible to design and build a quiet amp on the the same concept as the big boys - overdrive everything - but do it with "smaller" components? Like 1 watt of power from blowing the snot out of 1/2 watt tubes and 4 1/4 watt speakers. Same roar just little - not tamed. Mouse loud.

 

[jonny deep]

So, as a special, romantic, Valentine's treat, I've sent my other half upstairs on her own to watch French TV while I do a little shootout of all my tube amps.

The amps in the running are:

Marshall JCM1H
Marshall JVM1H
Vox Night Train NT15H
AmpMaker P1800 (plexi clone kit built by me).

I fiddled with the mic placement in my iso box and I think I made it better. All clips recorded for this were with the same speaker and mic placement, I just switched the cable between amps between clips. Setup is my 2x12 cab in my homemade iso box with an SM57 pointing at the G12H30 speaker, mic slightly off axis, pointing toward the cone about halfway between the edge of the dustcap and the edge of the speaker cone (so the mic is around on axis with the cone itself).

I played the same riff (some early 2000s cock rock) each time on my Les Paul Traditional, bridge pickup, volume and tone on 10. I adjusted the preamp gain so they were all hitting Reaper at approximately the same volume (as close as I could be bothered - it was within 0.5dB for all of them, I think).

JCM1H: -

1 watt mode
Bass - 5
Middle - 5
Treble - 5
Boost switch - off
Master - 10
Preamp volume - 2.5

JCM1H Link


JVM1H: -

1 watt mode
OD Channel
Resonance switch - off
Presence - 5
Bass - 6
Middle - 5
Treble - 5
Master - 10
Gain - 0.5

JVM1H Link


NT15H: -

Pentode 15 watt mode
Thick channel (bypasses tone controls)
Gain - 9 o'clock (a bit less than a quarter)
Volume - 5 o'clock (full)

NT15H Link


P1800: -

Power - 10 (18W)
Output mode - PP (push pull - 2 power tubes)
Bass - bypassed
Treble - 5
Volume - 2
Normal input (other option is Hot)

P1800 Link


If you can be bothered to listen to all of those, I salute you.

 

[Greg_L]

Hmm, interesting. I can hear a kind of mid honky resonance in all of the clips which I assume is the iso box.

I really like the JCM clip the best, but it's a little light on the bass. But the base tone of that clip sounds accurate to a JCM amp. I like it a lot, and it confirms my own opinion to myself that I've always liked the JCM-1 best of all the Marshall one-watters. I just like the JCM voicing. It's cutting and aggressive without needing a shit ton of gain and I dig it.

I really like the P1800 clip too. It has that dry plexi-ish type crunch. Good job on that amp.

The JVM is pretty good to me but like the JCM it's lacking some oomph and it's a little scratchy. That's a lot of crunch for only .5 on the gain. I think more low end would make that sound work very well.

I like the Nighttrain too, but it's got some fizz in it that isn't very appealing to me. I think it's got the best low end in it though.

Good stuff, thanks for posting them! Tune your guitar.

 

[jonny deep]

Hey Greg, thanks for listening! From my dicking around today, I think I like the Vox best of all, but I agree the jcm is much better than the other little Marshalls. I'm not very good at dialling in a tone - my aim here was just to have all tone controls on 5 then adjust gain to taste.

I was trying some cleanish tones with the Vox earlier with the top off the ISO box, listening to how it sounds from outside and through the mic/interface/headphones and found I can get it very close to the same with the box closed again. It wasn't very scientific and it didn't compare to the cab totally outside the box, but with some good mic placement, I think I can get some good results in the box.

I tuned before each clip, btw . I guess my guitar was still warming up.

 

[minerman]

Ok guys, I'm back from the date (actually went to the movies & had a steak...), so this is gonna be it from me for the night....

Clips all sound pretty good Jonny, but like Greg mentioned, sounds like an ISO cab to me dude...If you can keep playing around with the mic position, you might be able to dial it out, it wasn't in the last clip you posted (I don't think anyway), so it may just be the mic position combined with the ISO box itself...I feel your pain on the noise thing dude, been there done that, & I'm really, really thankful that I can be a noisy motherfucker just about any time I wanna now...


I like all the clips except the Vox dude, it's just too fuzzy sounding for me....The clip I like the best is your plexi clone, with the JCM-1 coming in a close second....One thing I can tell you to help those 1 watters sound bigger is to crank the bass up dude....With my DSL-1, I keep it pretty much dimed at all times, sometimes I even use the deep switch too, but again, turn the bass up dude, it's a little amp, & the speakers you have need to be pushed hard...

Next time you make clips/record, try turning the bass up & see how that does....


Nobody answered my question about my fake drums last night, so I'll ask again: Greg mentioned the toms were too "clean" sounding, I'm assuming that they stick out like samples, right??? If I raise the bleed on the individual tracks (oh's, hh, etc), would that help to make the kit/drums sound more real, or was it more the performance, or both????


Something else I've been thinking about doing since I can be pretty noisy at times is getting a real hi-hat to bang on while I track my fake drums....That would definitely kill all doubts whether the hi-hats were real or not, but might bring more issues like the noise of the e-pads bleeding into the hi-hat mic....I know I'm probably over-thinking all this shit again, & trying too hard on something that's really not gonna make a bit of fuckin' difference to anyone but me...lol...

I'm outta here, gonna finish my date here at the house......

 

[Greg_L]

Lol. Dude you posted in here while actually still on the date? Holy crap! Hold on baby, don't take your panties off yet, I gotta go check the tone thread.

Sorry I didn't see your question before...yeah bringing in more bleed might make the toms sit a little better. Or bring in some room mic or whatever you have to get more tom presence from the overheads.

And no, I wouldn't think using real hats would be a good idea. Like you said, you'll probably pick up the clickety clack of hitting the pads. And if you're gonna go with real hats, you might as well go balls out and just get real drums.

 

[rayc]

Johnny Deep,
The JCM sounded nice n gritty to me but had no bottom end & for that reason I prefer the P1800.

 

[ecc83]

Do you think it would be possible to design and build a quiet amp on the the same concept as the big boys - overdrive everything - but do it with "smaller" components? Like 1 watt of power from blowing the snot out of 1/2 watt tubes and 4 1/4 watt speakers. Same roar just little - not tamed. Mouse loud.

Yes!.....And no! Whilst it is possible to use say, an ECC82 to produce 1watt there are problems. Whilst the result CAN sound pretty good (cough!) the lack of dynamics means such an amp can never "feel" like a snorting 50 watter. Then, for "bedroom" use one watt is still way too loud! Into a V30 you get 100dB SPL and that will wake the chavvy next door. So, smaller. less sensitive speakers? Yes can and do do but small low S speakers just do not sound like 4xV30s! Size matters. The classic 4x12 sounds like it does not just because of the 4 speakers but also because of the total size of the beast. All down to wavelengths you see and we can't change the speed of sound in air!

Some better success have been reaped at 5 watts. Not many years ago a company released a 5 watt, push-pull fixed biased amplifier that was and still is a great success (and has been copied by YKW!) . Push-pull because that is how all the "classic" amps work and fixed biased because it is efficient and gives the amp better dynamics (will put out 10W if hardly pressed)...But! It ain't quiet! I have clocked one at over 106dB SPL into a 4x12.

There are other 5W amps of course, mainly EL84 single ended jobs and these (it is said) do not quite have the sound of a PP amp and are in any case hard to make low noise (the 5W, PP, FB amp is super, hi-fi, low noise).

Then there are power soaks and various on board power control systems (but only one really good one..Cough!) But none of this REALLY gets you a 50/100 watter smokin' into a stack. Can't really be done.

Oh! And BTW, even if you could find 0.25W tiny speakers they would burn out. It is a myth that you need to run a guitar speaker to within a watt of its life for a good sound. Gitampspeakers should be rated AT LEAST 50% above amp rating and preff' 100%. And that is Celestions, other mnfctrs tell porkies about power handling.

Dave.

 

[jonny deep]

Thanks for the listens, chaps! Much appreciated. I might have another go at this tonight with a few changes based on suggestions above. I'll try reverting to the previous mic placement, or something near it, to see if I can reduce the box sound.

 

[jonny deep]

Oh, and I meant to ask if anyone has played the Marshall Vintage Modern amps? Following comments above and reading around about the AFD100 and other amps, I'm thinking maybe a master volume amp would be a better choice for my situation and I'm now looking at videos and reviews of the VM2266 and the JVM205H. I can probably get the VM2266 for around £350 used or a JVM205H for around £500. I can try a JVM easy enough. Anyone any experience of the VMs?

 

[Greg_L]

Oh, and I meant to ask if anyone has played the Marshall Vintage Modern amps? Following comments above and reading around about the AFD100 and other amps, I'm thinking maybe a master volume amp would be a better choice for my situation and I'm now looking at videos and reviews of the VM2266 and the JVM205H. I can probably get the VM2266 for around £350 used or a JVM205H for around £500. I can try a JVM easy enough. Anyone any experience of the VMs?

The AFD is a master volume amp.

I have played VMs, and I think they're pretty cool, but they're a different sound. KT66s. That's the old old old school type Marshall power tube. The two input knobs act a lot like the volume controls on old Super Leads. You can blend to taste and get some classic Bluesbreaker type sounds with it, and then it can get pretty gnarly. Slash used these for a while. I auditioned them when I decided to go all apeshit and buy up every Marshall I ever wanted, but I really missed the midrangey EL34 type sound. Better players than me make that amp sound sweet as shit.

 

[jonny deep]

The AFD is a master volume amp.

Indeed, but I'm unsure when I'm likely to see another one at a reasonable price and what I'm reading about them doesn't make them sound too great, so I'm weighing up options.

I have played VMs, and I think they're pretty cool, but they're a different sound. KT66s. That's the old old old school type Marshall power tube. The two input knobs act a lot like the volume controls on old Super Leads. You can blend to taste and get some classic Bluesbreaker type sounds with it, and then it can get pretty gnarly. Slash used these for a while. I auditioned them when I decided to go all apeshit and buy up every Marshall I ever wanted, but I really missed the midrangey EL34 type sound. Better players than me make that amp sound sweet as shit.

You're a much better player than me, so I hold little hope in this case then! I'm going to go and try the 1987x and the JVM205H down at my new local place some time.

 

[Lt. Bob]

There are other 5W amps of course, mainly EL84 single ended jobs and these (it is said) do not quite have the sound of a PP amp

absolutely don't ..... I have a good sized collection of 5 watt single ended git amps and while they do have their charms ..... they simply don't sound the same as even a small PP amp.

 

[minerman]

Lol. Dude you posted in here while actually still on the date? Holy crap! Hold on baby, don't take your panties off yet, I gotta go check the tone thread.

Lol....she's an internet freak just like me dude, so when we got back here from the movies/dinner last night, we both just checking our usual forums/websites/whatever....It's so great that I can be myself with this woman, in every way....lol...She actually encourages me to play my music, where the "warden" was always bitching about the noise, basically about everything....Life's good for me right now, believe it or not, I'm actually happy...

Sorry I didn't see your question before...yeah bringing in more bleed might make the toms sit a little better. Or bring in some room mic or whatever you have to get more tom presence from the overheads.

Cool man, I do know I turned the bleed way down on those drums, so I'll give that a shot & see how it sounds.....

And no, I wouldn't think using real hats would be a good idea. Like you said, you'll probably pick up the clickety clack of hitting the pads. And if you're gonna go with real hats, you might as well go balls out and just get real drums.

Yeah, after I thought about that, if I'm gonna get a real hi-hat, might as well get a whole kit....Maybe someday, but for now, the e-drums will have to do...I do think what I've been doing lately with 'em sound a lot better than my hand-programming/Jamstix stuff...

Jonny: Dude I feel your pain on the loudness thing with your family, I really do...Been there & done that, but if you're thinking of buying a 1987x, be prepared for it to get really, really loud man...If my Ceriatone is anything like a real 1987x, you'll have to get the master up to about 7 or so to get "that" sound, it's a glorious thing yes, but, it's also louder than you can imagine compared to your 1 watt amps....Just sayin'.....

And on the JVM, dude, if it were me, & I wanted a JVM, I'd just save up & get the JVM410...I'm sure the 2-channel JVM is good, but it's only "half" the amp the 410 is....

 

[Greg_L]

Jonny, the 1987x has no master volume, so you're in for a deafening treat as soon as you flip it on. It goes from off, to loud as fuck. If loudness is a concern, the 1987 is definitely not the amp for you.

Try it out and enjoy the sound, but dude, they're loud. You will need an attenuator or some kind of volume mod.....or power scaling!

 

[jonny deep]

Lol, I'm only going to try out the 1987x for fun. I've never played on an amp like it, so I'm going to go in, crank it and bash out some AC/DC real fast before they come and tell me to turn it down.

I'm going to try the JVM out as I'm actually interested in it. I can realistically get hold of one for less than £500 and I think it might well do the tones I want at low volume, with the option to crank it for recording.

Interestingly, yesterday when I was messing with my 15W Vox with the iso box open, I had it on full volume and my girlfriend said she couldn't even hear it in the living room (I moved the iso box inside, just outside my studio room now, and the walls here are pretty solid), so there's some scope for me playing at some volume occasionally for recording purposes. She's always been pretty good about me turning it up loud anyway, but the iso box means I can play after my son's bedtime.

 

[jonny deep]

And on the JVM, dude, if it were me, & I wanted a JVM, I'd just save up & get the JVM410...I'm sure the 2-channel JVM is good, but it's only "half" the amp the 410 is....

I'm liking the 205 as it's only 50W - I figure I can get the power section cooking at lower volume. I don't know, I guess the JVM gets the voicing from the preamp section. I'll just have to give them a go and see what sound I can get from them. I also need to use whatever amp I get with my 2x12, which is a lot easier with 50W.

 

[Greg_L]

I'm liking the 205 as it's only 50W - I figure I can get the power section cooking at lower volume. I don't know, I guess the JVM gets the voicing from the preamp section. I'll just have to give them a go and see what sound I can get from them. I also need to use whatever amp I get with my 2x12, which is a lot easier with 50W.

The power section doesn't ever really "cook" on the JVMs. There's an easy mod to remedy that though. It is a preamp focused amp. The 50w option is a good idea for your cab, but there are some things about the JVM2 that's different from the 4 series. For one, the clean and crunch channel is combined on the JVM2 like a DSL and has a shared EQ. And the JVM2's OD channel is actually the JVM4's OD2 which means it has a more modern voicing with the mids shifted a little lower. That bugs some people, but I like OD2 on my 4-series JVM, so I don't really see it as a problem.