Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I'm very curious about this. I already have my food dehydrator so I'm ready to go ( all 1/4" stuff) ..... I'll let you work out the kinks and then be my guide thru the magic of tape-baking.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
Me too.
Just never got around to it.
Just never got around to it.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
OK....so I just spun up a couple of the 2" reels that I baked on Saturday....I wanted to give them a good 48 hours to settle back down after the baking before trying them out.
These were reels that had serious stickiness to them and I couldn't FF/RW from end to end without stopping several times to clean the sticky gunk off the guides. They would squeal and even come to stop when getting close to the ends of the tape.
I baked them for about 6-7 hours, flipping them each every hour or so, and also changing their position top/bottom in the dehydrator, since I was baking two reels at a time. I did a couple of reels that had very, very mild stickiness for only about 4 hours.....with the 2" tape I think 4 to 8 hours, depending on original SSS condition...and that's what was recommended on Eddie Ciletti's website. With narrower tape, you can go less time. Also, you should use metal, 10.5" reels when baking. The plastic 7" reels won't fit and the baking would probably deform the plastic reels even if they could.
I have to say....the baking/drying worked like a charm.
On first wind, you could hear little tape noises coming from the reel, which is mostly due to the tape having "set" itself on the metal reel during baking....but otherwise it wound without ANY stickiness, and when I checked the tape guides.....nothing.
I RW & FF twice (4 passes).
The only noticeable thing was that on the first wind there was some mild shed....but this was mostly the tape cleaning itself post-baking. I see this type if shed even with my good 499 reels...it's really nothing worrisome.
Much less on the 2nd wind, and by the 3rd wind it was gone, and on the final wind I did a library wind to spool the tape up neatly.
I didn't spin up the other reels I baked....just no time tonight, but I will in the next couple of days, though I don't expect the results to be any different.
On each case of the baked tapes I wrote the month/year....and now I will see how long they hold like this. I do store all my reels in the most climate steady room of my house, cool and dry, so I think that will help keep them free of SSS for a good time......maybe permanently or maybe not, we'll see.
Anyway...baking works, so no doubts about that, and this Snackmaster FD-50 was a great choice for it....it didn't disappoint.
Now I can use it to make some beef jerky.
These were reels that had serious stickiness to them and I couldn't FF/RW from end to end without stopping several times to clean the sticky gunk off the guides. They would squeal and even come to stop when getting close to the ends of the tape.
I baked them for about 6-7 hours, flipping them each every hour or so, and also changing their position top/bottom in the dehydrator, since I was baking two reels at a time. I did a couple of reels that had very, very mild stickiness for only about 4 hours.....with the 2" tape I think 4 to 8 hours, depending on original SSS condition...and that's what was recommended on Eddie Ciletti's website. With narrower tape, you can go less time. Also, you should use metal, 10.5" reels when baking. The plastic 7" reels won't fit and the baking would probably deform the plastic reels even if they could.
I have to say....the baking/drying worked like a charm.
On first wind, you could hear little tape noises coming from the reel, which is mostly due to the tape having "set" itself on the metal reel during baking....but otherwise it wound without ANY stickiness, and when I checked the tape guides.....nothing.
I RW & FF twice (4 passes).
The only noticeable thing was that on the first wind there was some mild shed....but this was mostly the tape cleaning itself post-baking. I see this type if shed even with my good 499 reels...it's really nothing worrisome.
Much less on the 2nd wind, and by the 3rd wind it was gone, and on the final wind I did a library wind to spool the tape up neatly.
I didn't spin up the other reels I baked....just no time tonight, but I will in the next couple of days, though I don't expect the results to be any different.
On each case of the baked tapes I wrote the month/year....and now I will see how long they hold like this. I do store all my reels in the most climate steady room of my house, cool and dry, so I think that will help keep them free of SSS for a good time......maybe permanently or maybe not, we'll see.
Anyway...baking works, so no doubts about that, and this Snackmaster FD-50 was a great choice for it....it didn't disappoint.
Now I can use it to make some beef jerky.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
awesome!OK....so I just spun up a couple of the 2" reels that I baked on Saturday....I wanted to give them a good 48 hours to settle back down after the baking before trying them out.
These were reels that had serious stickiness to them and I couldn't FF/RW from end to end without stopping several times to clean the sticky gunk off the guides. They would squeal and even come to stop when getting close to the ends of the tape.
I baked them for about 6-7 hours, flipping them each every hour or so, and also changing their position top/bottom in the dehydrator, since I was baking two reels at a time. I did a couple of reels that had very, very mild stickiness for only about 4 hours.....with the 2" tape I think 4 to 8 hours, depending on original SSS condition...and that's what was recommended on Eddie Ciletti's website. With narrower tape, you can go less time. Also, you should use metal, 10.5" reels when baking. The plastic 7" reels won't fit and the baking would probably deform the plastic reels even if they could.
I have to say....the baking/drying worked like a charm.
On first wind, you could hear little tape noises coming from the reel, which is mostly due to the tape having "set" itself on the metal reel during baking....but otherwise it wound without ANY stickiness, and when I checked the tape guides.....nothing.
I RW & FF twice (4 passes).
The only noticeable thing was that on the first wind there was some mild shed....but this was mostly the tape cleaning itself post-baking. I see this type if shed even with my good 499 reels...it's really nothing worrisome.
Much less on the 2nd wind, and by the 3rd wind it was gone, and on the final wind I did a library wind to spool the tape up neatly.
I didn't spin up the other reels I baked....just no time tonight, but I will in the next couple of days, though I don't expect the results to be any different.
On each case of the baked tapes I wrote the month/year....and now I will see how long they hold like this. I do store all my reels in the most climate steady room of my house, cool and dry, so I think that will help keep them free of SSS for a good time......maybe permanently or maybe not, we'll see.
Anyway...baking works, so no doubts about that, and this Snackmaster FD-50 was a great choice for it....it didn't disappoint.
Now I can use it to make some beef jerky.
I've read they'll stay ok for about a month so I'm gonna be curious about this one too.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah...I'm being optimistic about the "permanent" part....
....but I do think a lot has to do with 1.) how bad the SSS was to begin with, 2.) how well/long it's baked, since that's what "resets" the chemicals on the tape, and 3.) how well it's stored after baking.
I also think tape "baking" is bad term, but one that has been used over and over, so it stuck....but really, it's more about tape dehydration, getting the moisture out and the relatively mild heat (by baking standards) of 135 degrees is there to mainly force that dehydration and help reset the chemical bonds.
Anyway....in my own situation, if the tape holds even for say....a couple of months, I can work with that tape as though it was new, since I'm not that concerned about *archiving* on those tape. Rather, it's about tracking and then transferring to the DAW. So I'm excited that the "baking" worked so well, because I now have 10 more reels of 456 which I wasn't initially expecting to use, but now it is useable for tracking, which is great.
The 499 and 996 I have are super tapes to go with, but there's something nice about tracking with 456 too.
I was ready to just abandon the 10 reels and stick with the 499/996 reels....but now I'll be reevaluating my tape choices when I track. The 456 is what I would call "softer", more "impressionable" (if that makes sense) than the 499 and 996.
The other cool thing is that my MX-80 has the ability to hold two tape calibrations. The A position is default for 456, and the B position allows a second tape formulation, which I have set for 499/996.
I'm going to do a re-cal on my deck at some point in the near future....as I want to check the tension now that I have all the proper tools which I didn't have initially when I got the MX-80 (tentelometer and W&F meter), and at that point I will recheck the settings for both A & B positions.
I have like a dozen reels of 456 which I will not hesitate to track on thanks to the "baking".
For the guys trying to salvage a prerecorded tape or who are looking to archival....baking will only help in the salvage, so once it's ready, it's best to transfer to a more reliable formulation or digital format.
The other use for baking and reusing tapes, would be maybe for an older MRL tape.
I have three OEM 1/2" Fostex calibration tapes that have some SSS issues (2 with the calibration tones and the other is the W&F test tape). They used some crappy tape (it has "A•BEX" written on the reels). I have an actual MRL tape that was made for that machine, so I just use that....but if someone had an older MRL that could be saved with "baking", they might be able to use it when needed, and then bake again at a later date if it goes SSS again.....save the money on a new MRL.....?
I will monitor tapes and see what they do over time....
....but I do think a lot has to do with 1.) how bad the SSS was to begin with, 2.) how well/long it's baked, since that's what "resets" the chemicals on the tape, and 3.) how well it's stored after baking.I also think tape "baking" is bad term, but one that has been used over and over, so it stuck....but really, it's more about tape dehydration, getting the moisture out and the relatively mild heat (by baking standards) of 135 degrees is there to mainly force that dehydration and help reset the chemical bonds.
Anyway....in my own situation, if the tape holds even for say....a couple of months, I can work with that tape as though it was new, since I'm not that concerned about *archiving* on those tape. Rather, it's about tracking and then transferring to the DAW. So I'm excited that the "baking" worked so well, because I now have 10 more reels of 456 which I wasn't initially expecting to use, but now it is useable for tracking, which is great.
The 499 and 996 I have are super tapes to go with, but there's something nice about tracking with 456 too.
I was ready to just abandon the 10 reels and stick with the 499/996 reels....but now I'll be reevaluating my tape choices when I track. The 456 is what I would call "softer", more "impressionable" (if that makes sense) than the 499 and 996.
The other cool thing is that my MX-80 has the ability to hold two tape calibrations. The A position is default for 456, and the B position allows a second tape formulation, which I have set for 499/996.
I'm going to do a re-cal on my deck at some point in the near future....as I want to check the tension now that I have all the proper tools which I didn't have initially when I got the MX-80 (tentelometer and W&F meter), and at that point I will recheck the settings for both A & B positions.
I have like a dozen reels of 456 which I will not hesitate to track on thanks to the "baking".
For the guys trying to salvage a prerecorded tape or who are looking to archival....baking will only help in the salvage, so once it's ready, it's best to transfer to a more reliable formulation or digital format.
The other use for baking and reusing tapes, would be maybe for an older MRL tape.
I have three OEM 1/2" Fostex calibration tapes that have some SSS issues (2 with the calibration tones and the other is the W&F test tape). They used some crappy tape (it has "A•BEX" written on the reels). I have an actual MRL tape that was made for that machine, so I just use that....but if someone had an older MRL that could be saved with "baking", they might be able to use it when needed, and then bake again at a later date if it goes SSS again.....save the money on a new MRL.....?
I will monitor tapes and see what they do over time....
B
Beck
Guest
Nice job! The Snackmaster I have is about ten years old and still works great. plastic 7-inch will work if you lean the reels against the center. At 130 -140 degrees the plastic is fine... no melting, no deforming at all.
The tapes will be usable for a few weeks to months, but could be less than weeks depending. Since the problem with the bad binder is that it was chemically defective, so it will always absorb moisture back in, but at a faster rate than when the tape went from new to a sticky state the first time.
And the worst part is the tape goes back into sticky shed so gradually that at first it will appear to be working fine, but will lose audio properties before mechanical problems will be obvious. So its always a temporary fix to get prerecorded material transferred and then toss the tape... unfortunately. I wish it were a fix.
The tapes will be usable for a few weeks to months, but could be less than weeks depending. Since the problem with the bad binder is that it was chemically defective, so it will always absorb moisture back in, but at a faster rate than when the tape went from new to a sticky state the first time.
And the worst part is the tape goes back into sticky shed so gradually that at first it will appear to be working fine, but will lose audio properties before mechanical problems will be obvious. So its always a temporary fix to get prerecorded material transferred and then toss the tape... unfortunately. I wish it were a fix.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Good to know that the plastic reels will be OK....though at this time I have no SSS tapes on any plastic reels that need baking for me to try it out.
So you're just laying the plastic reel on top of the tray's center hub in the dehydrator? Do you place anything else over it, since the other trays won't fit properly then....or do you mean something else when you say "lean against the center"..?
Anyway...I'm not really expecting a permanent soloution....though how long before the SSS comes back isn't a given thing.
This guy knows tape transferring and restoration...and baking is part of what they do, and he says it can be days, weeks, months or even years before the SSS returns.
Sonicraft A2DX Lab: Ultimate Multitrack Analog to Digital Transfers - Tape Baking
If been down to Steve's studio in NJ. I actually bought a used Fostex G16 off of him a couple of years ago to have as a parts spare (right before I purchased my MX-80)....it's been sitting in a closet since the day I picked it up.
He's also the one that clued me in on the Dolby S chips, and that the Dolby C Fostex machines are not prone to the same problems, so I'm lucky to have a G16 with Dolby C, as it will probably play on for years to come.
So you're just laying the plastic reel on top of the tray's center hub in the dehydrator? Do you place anything else over it, since the other trays won't fit properly then....or do you mean something else when you say "lean against the center"..?
Anyway...I'm not really expecting a permanent soloution....though how long before the SSS comes back isn't a given thing.
This guy knows tape transferring and restoration...and baking is part of what they do, and he says it can be days, weeks, months or even years before the SSS returns.
Sonicraft A2DX Lab: Ultimate Multitrack Analog to Digital Transfers - Tape Baking
If been down to Steve's studio in NJ. I actually bought a used Fostex G16 off of him a couple of years ago to have as a parts spare (right before I purchased my MX-80)....it's been sitting in a closet since the day I picked it up.
He's also the one that clued me in on the Dolby S chips, and that the Dolby C Fostex machines are not prone to the same problems, so I'm lucky to have a G16 with Dolby C, as it will probably play on for years to come.
B
Beck
Guest
You can fit three 7-inch plastic reels in one tray, but they lean on each other in the center. Then you put a spacer ring that has the center cut out and the a normal ring with the basket intact on top of that. So the 7-inch reels are angled up a bit, but since you have a cutout space ring it keeps the edges of the reels from rising too high.
All my pics are on another PC and hopefully I'll get that thing reinstalled and have some visuals in a day or two. Actually there are a bunch of my pics somewhere on this forum going many years back, but I'd have to dig for them
B
Beck
Guest
Yep, I know its not a given thing and have been saying that for many years. That unpredictability is the problem and its frustrating. People are still selling tape on eBay saying things like its been baked and is ready for reuse. They have it all wrong, accidentally or on purpose, depending on the integrity of the seller. I've been familiar with the soniccraft tape baking page for a number of years because he drew from Celletti, Hess and my stuff as well as others on the topic from years ago. We exchanged a few emails I don't disagree with much he says because he even uses some of my original wording from 2007, but just see some things he left out, and of course he's selling a service, so the page is an ad for that service.
He has a great facility and nice oven, and I like how he's thought out and perfected the cleaning procedure, but you don't need that much of an oven that holds temps to that nth of a degree. "Kitchen appliances" as he calls them AKA food dehydrators are more than adequate. I set mine referenced to an Accurite digital thermometer with remote probe rather than rely on what it says on the adjustment knob. The big danger is getting the temp too high, which can damage the tape. But it doesn't matter if it strays up and down by a couple degrees. That's not an issue. However, I don't see it even straying that much with the Snackmaster that I have. The original baking procedure patented by 3M used convection ovens made for baking food.
The one important thing he doesn't really go into is that a tape doesn't have to shed at all to be in the beginnings of the SSS state. All it has to have done is swell from moisture absorption and that alone increases the thickness of the oxide enough for you to lose high frequencies. That's the insidious thing that gets people when they think they can replay or even worse, record with used tape that is known for sticky shed. It doesn't shed. It doesn't squeal. The audio is simply degraded. So to be sure, you have to bake before each transfer. If say two weeks have passed since you've baked a tape there's already enough doubt. I've baked lots of tape over the years and the first thing I see when a tape is starting to fall back into SSS again is a subtle drop in overall output level, which will get worse and eventually start back physically shedding and slowing down on the machine from friction again. Baking restores everything including the output level.
I wish there were a sure way to tell if a tape is still "restored" after the baking process. I mean, you can't pull a tape off the shelf a year later or even a month later and be sure its ok for transfer in practical terms. We can only throw around the concept of how long a baking procedure keeps things kosher in academic terms.
B
Beck
Guest
Yes it was/is standard practice to record tones at the beginning of a tape, but not to gauge tape deterioration.
Again, as stated at the beginning of this thread and elsewhere in other threads here, and from any place, anyone, any forum or any book, guide, website, etc, that understands SSS, THE ONLY REASON TO BAKE TAPE IS TO RECOVER PREVIOUSLY RECORDED MATERIAL. YOU SHOULD NOT USE TAPE FROM THE SSS ERA TO RECORD NEW MATERIAL!
The only people that will say you can are trying to sell bad tape. A whole wave of misinformation about SSS has sprung up since this thread began due primarily to individuals trying to hock unsuitable tape and make it look attractive. SSS tape is compromised, and though it can be temporarily restored for recovering whatever is recorded on it, it can't be trusted for reuse.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
My own curiosity aside about how long baked tapes will hold the "bake".....Beck is right ^^^^.
I wouldn't really trust a baked tape with any new/fresh recording.
I would have to be down to may last reel of tape, and not a reel to be found on the planet....and maybe then I might try it if it happend to have SSS, otherwise no.
but can you tell me if this tape is the pre-shed era? It says Elk Grove Ill. Not sure if it's a re-issue. If it's 
B
Beck
Guest
cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
Quick follow-up: Is video tape also susceptible to sticky shed as the audio tape mentioned in this thread or does it have a completely different binder formulation which is immune? Is American made video tape, for example, made between mid 70's and mid 90's still good, either new or pre-recorded? I assume all Japanese made tapes are fine?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No.
I've got a variety of brands with backcoating....some from the late '70s, and no SSS.