Track purity

[somegeezer]

In a way, your point kind of contradicts itself. If the drummer has played to a click and has really nailed it, then if you play to that drummer, you are in essence playing to the click anyway.

My point was actually I never practise using a metronome. Not that I don't play along to a drummer whilst recording. =P But it's just good practise to record to a click when my drummer can't keep in time. Seriously, during live shows, he's been known to drift a lot!
I could bet that if there was no click and we were each to record ourselves first, then record the rest, using just the first instrument as the point of reference. My playing would be the one with less drift. =P

 

[Clam Soup]

I wonder if The Drifters had these problems?

 

[miroslav]

A real simple test you can do for yourself is to record a click (or any solid/steady reference beat) at some BPM tempo of your choosing and record about 3-4 minutes worth.
Now, cut/split the click track after the first 2 measures (8 beats) and then MUTE the remaining portion of the click track.

Then set yourself up to record to a new track and play whatever instrument you play, using those 8 click track beats as your count-off, and then keep on playing WITHOUT the rest of the click track (you muted it) for the remaining 3-4 minutes.
Don't even look at the tracks for visual cues...just turn away and play/record using your...."internal clock".

Stop recording at the end of 3-4 minutes and compare where notes/strokes/beats of your playing are relative to the muted click track beats, and also un-mute the click and now play them back together and listen and be amazed at how your "internal clock" is off relative to the click track.

Do that for 10-15 more tracks, and watch how the drift errors multiply...and more important...how the drift errors vary as to where they drift relative to the other drifts.
It might not be too bad if you COULD drift the same way in every spot on every track for 10-15 tracks, as that might not get noticed, which is what often happens when a band plays together, because they are simultaneously giving each other cues, so if they are relatively tight, it wont be too noticeable when they drift together in spots, but playing/recording alone...you will have sloppy tracks that will never sound like a tight band played them.

A solid reference is the way to go...IMHO.
Even after I get the drums recorded...I don't stop using the click. It's there for every track, I simply turn it down and pan it off to the side so it's not the most prominent thing.

And like Armistice said...if you find a simple "click" sound to be distracting...use a drum loop or some sequenced MIDI drums.

 

[Clam Soup]

Did Armistice also say he'd buy all of this gear for me?

I am working with what I have and the conversation is so far from the OP that it's not worth revisiting.

 

[miroslav]

Did Armistice also say he'd buy all of this gear for me?

I am working with what I have and the conversation is so far from the OP that it's not worth revisiting.

Huh...? What gear are you talking about...?

Oh...and you were the one that started talking about how you never need/use click tracks and that they are unnatural....so it's actually your conversation, you are the OP.

It's OK though...if you don't want to use click tracks, then don't, but you should at least try my experiment above to convince yourself how tight you are with/without one...and then go from there.

 

[grimtraveller]

My point was actually I never practise using a metronome.

Fair dos. Nor do I. I don't even practice !

I wonder if The Drifters had these problems?

Not until they took acid.

I am working with what I have and the conversation is so far from the OP that it's not worth revisiting.

We got onto clicks because someone mentioned that the click might be too loud or something and you said you almost never use them and why and then a few people weighed in with comment and the topic drifted from there.
You took the topic from it's course, twice in fact (mastering). But that's what human beings do, one thing leads to another and it's cool.
In terms of the thing about bleed, in 20 years I'd never had headphones bleed into the mic until the start of this year when I was doing some backing vocals with some friends and the guide that I'd whistled spilled onto our three tracks. It sounded kind of eerie so I kept it in. But closed phones are a great remedy and as for having to have the music up loud because you sing loud and you feel your passion would dissipate otherwise, well, everyone is different and I personally think that it helps to learn to be versatile, that is be able to handle all different kinds of scenarios.
But don't ask me. I'm irrelevant !

 

[grimtraveller]

Having said all of this, it's interesting to note how tight bands from the 60s were. Many rarely wavered timewise. So much so, that in many documentaries or old clips, the programme makers will play the record of a particular song and show a clip of the band playing said song live and it's amazing how close the two often are.
So I go back to the point that the click argument is aimed primarilly at home recorders that are building things from scratch.
Now, let's all go out and eat !

 

[miroslav]

Having said all of this, it's interesting to note how tight bands from the 60s were. Many rarely wavered timewise. So much so, that in many documentaries or old clips, the programme makers will play the record of a particular song and show a clip of the band playing said song live and it's amazing how close the two often are.

Not sure how much of that is unwavering timing VS really good video post when editing the documentaries.

This thing about click tracks and how the topic tends to upset people who don't or can't play to one...is not the intention.
From a listening position, if a musician/band is "pretty tight"...most people won't notice drifts and minor timing issues, and we all have played that way live, as few people use a click on stage.
It's not important for playing, but we are talking about multi-track recording where very often in the home rec environment it's one guy laying down track after track. In that environment, for most music styles, using a click simply ensures that you get more cohesive timing from track to track.
It's not meant to torture people into submisison... ...and yes, it takes a few tries to get use to a click for some folks, but I think everyone who is sure they don't need one, should test their timing against one. It will be convincing enough.

Of course, you can ignore all that and plod on without a click...it's your music, record it however it is best for you.

 

[Clam Soup]

Huh...? What gear are you talking about...?

All of this MIDI and drum loop stuff.

From the top I have my accoustic guitar, an Alesis Multimix 8 FX, a Behringer C3 mic, 3E RP-21 headset, and Cubase LE5. This is the whole of what I can afford, and it is all that I have - hopefully it will be sufficient to capture what I have in music.

I don't know what drum loops are, I don't know what MIDI is, I don't know the difference between open and closed headphones, etc. The whole language is foreign to me, and I'm hoping I don't have to learn too much along the way in order to record music.... except where I come to a dillema, and then I come here to see if someone can explain the problem for me.

 

[miroslav]

Cubase has MIDI...it's just a communication language for music instruments...you don't really need to buy it.
It will allow things like synths and stuff to be controlled from a single sequencer, which is what Cubase originally was.

AFA drum loops...you can find enough for free, and it's not too hard to make your own. They are usually made from samples of real drum recordings and they come in various time signatures. A drum loop CD is not very expensive and it will have tons of drum sounds and loops that you can use in your own recordings. You just load them up into Cubase to a track...and away you go. Very easy/simple.

On the subject of headphones...I just posted an explanation of semi-open VS closed here:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...open-semi-open-headphones-334042/#post3772124

Hope that helps some...but feel free to ask any other question you have. There's plenty of folks here that have been doing this stuff for a long time and most questions can be answered.

 

[Supercreep]

How...why?

That really doesn't mean anything, and yeah we've had this discussion here many times.
The next comments that usually follow will probably be about human feel and playing with groove...etc....which is NOT the same as "drift".

Drift is basically just losing touch with the beat.

Nah. You can definitely push and pull against the metronome to add weight or urgency to a recording. "Pocket" playing isn't just a buzzword.

 

[miroslav]

"Pocket playing"...aka "groove"...is not the same as drift.

When you play in the pocket, you generall push or pull against the beat the same way throughout...so in effect, you are still playing on/with the beat...in sync...there is still consistancy.
Drift is just sloppy playing and is never done the same way twice.

 

[ecktronic]

You definitley don't need a click to multi-track record! It can help and definitely does for editing.

 

[gecko zzed]

What ecktronic says ^^^

I agree that working with a click does make editing and multi-tracking life easier, but it is not essential.

 

[Richie2708]

I came across something different the other day. I was recording a 8 year old boy who wanted to sing a cover of 'A Team' by Ed Sheeran. It was family so we arranged a day to do it. I found that he really struggled to keep in key to the music, however when i removed the music, and he sang to a click track he sang it soo much better. Then we just placed it in time to the track and it was done.

I found this weird, as when i record, the music is my reference for the key I sing in, but it seemed to put him off.

Just thought I'd mention another use I had for a click track.

 

[miroslav]

What ecktronic says ^^^

I agree that working with a click does make editing and multi-tracking life easier, but it is not essential.

But then what's the real thrust here...to let life be harder?

I don't think anyone said it's absolutely essential to use a click for multi-track recording...but it is just that...a lot easier working with one in most track-by-track situations, though it's was noted earlier, there are times when you can bypass it.

Given a choice.....I will suggest that people learn to play to a metronome and learn to record with a click rather than avoiding them. It can only serve to make you a tighter player in the long run...IMHO.
I'm not just trying to beat that into the ground...but many years of guitar/piano lessons WITH a metronome and teachers that always emphasized its use in practice...musta' really rubbed off on me.

 

[Greg_L]

People need to get over the dumb notion that click tracks make music mechanical and robotic. It's a tempo guide. People that can actually play have no problem with them. If a song stays with one meter throughout, why wouldn't you use one? The only people that shun click tracks are the people that aren't as good as they think they are.

 

[Clam Soup]

Somewhere, way back when in this thread, I promised to use my click tracks to keep Jimmy out of sa fight, and to satisfy miroslav. I also noted where I found it more valued in multi-tracking. .... and I do. Especially right at the gate. Counting everyone in on time.

What I disagree with is boxing things up in these little cubicles and saying "anyone who doesn't do it like this sucks."

Richie - I loved that story about the 8 year old. That demonstrates his gift natural gift and how it applies to his abilities.

I used a friend's niece a couple of years ago to sing backing vocals in a specific song. The "engineer" hated her voice when he isolated it.... and he was right - she was off-key. But, in the mix it sounded cool. He could not except that and began to focus on getting her into key - isolating her tracks and making her sing it over and over again. When he was done, the song sounded WAY worse than the original take. For me, her "off key" voice actually added fabric between my vocal and her uncle's. Like a neutralizer. IMHO it would have been better to use the fader where clashes were obvious than to ruin the entire song.

 

[miroslav]

What I disagree with is boxing things up in these little cubicles and saying "anyone who doesn't do it like this sucks."

Don't mind Greg...he has a "tough love" style to his posts... ...but actually, he isn't saying "if you don't do it like this, you suck".
What he is saying is that when people blame a click for not being able to play/record...mmmm, well I have to agree with Greg and others, it's usually the person's timing that is falling short and not the click track's fault.
Point he is making is that anyone who has perfect "internal" timing shouldn't have any trouble playing with a click. After that, whether you use one or not...is a different discussion.

I always think of an orchestra with a conductor...and imagine someone standing up and telling the conductor to stop keeping time because they can't follow along and that their "internal clock" is good enough.

 

[mixsit]

I was reading elsewhere of the importance that ought to be placed on getting the optimum tempo for a piece, and conductors may use a metronome to set their pace.
But do conductors continue with a click?