Track purity

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I almost never use click tracks. I've had people tell me how important they are, but they actually get in my way. I keep time extremely well without trying. The clicks, which never sound natural to me, actually take my mind off of the music the way a fly might annoy someone who is trying to eat.

It's no different than tapping your foot while you play or listening to a drummer...it's just that the click is always *on time*...and that is what may feel unnatural, because rarely can anyone play perfectly on time without a solid reference, even when they think they can...
... though if you are a solo player (like, acoustic guitar)...it may not be relevant, but for recording, solid timing is very relevant.

Learn to play with a metronome/click...you'll be glad you did.
 
I never learnt to play with a metronome. When I've played along with one in the past, it's been easy enough too. My internal clock seems to be enough. It's much more helpful to just teach your body to do that, than to rely on something mechanical.
 
My internal clock seems to be enough. It's much more helpful to just teach your body to do that, than to rely on something mechanical.

I'm sure it feels that way to you...but I will bet money that you will never play a track twice exactly the same way on a given song, which is important to do when doing multi-track recording.
Also, when playing/recording with others...do they follow your "internal clock" or do you follow theirs...??? ;)

It's not about following something "mechanical"...it's about being on time from start to finish with NO drift. You need a solid reference that doesn't change from take to take and track to track when recording.
 
I never learnt to play with a metronome. When I've played along with one in the past, it's been easy enough too. My internal clock seems to be enough. It's much more helpful to just teach your body to do that, than to rely on something mechanical.

I'm sure it feels that way to you...but I will bet money that you will never play a track twice exactly the same way on a given song, which is important to do when doing multi-track recording.
Also, when playing/recording with others...do they follow your "internal clock" or do you follow theirs...??? ;)

It's not about following something "mechanical"...it's about being on time from start to finish with NO drift. You need a solid reference that doesn't change from take to take and track to track when recording.

I never taught myself anything with regard to structure, synchopation, vocals, etc. Some things come as gifts that I never understood until I hear people talking about them in terms of "learning."

I met a guy once that had perfect pitch. Pick a note and he would hit it without having to hear it first. These are not common things, but they do exist.

My metranome is governed by something - I just don't know what. ... I do know that as a child my mom bounced around the room constantly while music was playing making a ticking/clicking sound with her tongue. It goes click click-click click click click click-click click click ... that's the cycle. And, most of the music I write fits that synch like a glove. Is it perfect/perfect? Probably not - but, if I play a song yesterday, today, and tomorrow and each day it turns out to be 3:32 something is happening.

With all of that said, I do agree with you miroslav - the click track becomes increasingly important when you add other people or elements to a song.
 
I'm sure it feels that way to you...but I will bet money that you will never play a track twice exactly the same way on a given song, which is important to do when doing multi-track recording.
Also, when playing/recording with others...do they follow your "internal clock" or do you follow theirs...??? ;)

It's not about following something "mechanical"...it's about being on time from start to finish with NO drift. You need a solid reference that doesn't change from take to take and track to track when recording.
I can play quite consistently, yes. Of course, when it comes to a band setting, you have a lot more to listen out for. If the drummer id going to slow down, I'm going to have to too. That's why it's important to at least get the drummer record to a click track. Even more so if they often wander through tempo. But once that instrument is down, everyone has a real point of reference. My internal clock syncs to it and then I'm pretty much playing on my own.

I never taught myself anything with regard to structure, synchopation, vocals, etc. Some things come as gifts that I never understood until I hear people talking about them in terms of "learning."

I met a guy once that had perfect pitch. Pick a note and he would hit it without having to hear it first. These are not common things, but they do exist.

My metranome is governed by something - I just don't know what. ... I do know that as a child my mom bounced around the room constantly while music was playing making a ticking/clicking sound with her tongue. It goes click click-click click click click click-click click click ... that's the cycle. And, most of the music I write fits that synch like a glove. Is it perfect/perfect? Probably not - but, if I play a song yesterday, today, and tomorrow and each day it turns out to be 3:32 something is happening.

With all of that said, I do agree with you miroslav - the click track becomes increasingly important when you add other people or elements to a song.

+1
 
That's why it's important to at least get the drummer record to a click track. Even more so if they often wander through tempo. But once that instrument is down, everyone has a real point of reference. My internal clock syncs to it and then I'm pretty much playing on my own.

Well in that regard...most decent musicians have an internal clock that lets them sync to "a real point of reference"...so nothing unusual about that, and that's really all I'm saying. Use a real point of reference.

AFA being able to end at "3.32" every time....that says little for what can happen between 0:00 and 3:32. I will bet most people will drift around even if they hold the overall time of the song.
I'm just saying that for mult-tracking...that doesn't work, you need that solid point of reference in order to be able to play around a beat and still be on the beat.
 
A bit of drift can be good though.

How...why?

That really doesn't mean anything, and yeah we've had this discussion here many times.
The next comments that usually follow will probably be about human feel and playing with groove...etc....which is NOT the same as "drift".

Drift is basically just losing touch with the beat.
 
Not to start a fight in any way here, but every single time I heard anyone say they have perfect time in the last 20 years of my life, they were quite incorrect. Just saying.
 
There you go again...

:D

LOL! No seriously, that is just my experience. I am not arguing, just making an observation based on my experience........Yeah, probably going to start an argument huh? Oh well.........

Click tracks are a personal taste. Those who chose not to use them can do so, and that is just fine. Those who do, cannot tell someone what is right and wrong. Just how out of time it sounds to them. I have recorded drum tracks myself with no click and was happy with it. I however do not do so anymore, now that I am working in DAW. Personal taste and workflow.

Oh and by the way. I'm always wrong anyway, so don't even try to argue with me. I will lose. :D
 
A bit of drift can be good though.
I think it's more correct to say "A bit of drift is unintentional" ! Sometimes, drift sounds awful and slack. Or at least it has when I've done it.
If the drummer is going to slow down, I'm going to have to too. That's why it's important to at least get the drummer record to a click track. Even more so if they often wander through tempo. But once that instrument is down, everyone has a real point of reference. My internal clock syncs to it and then I'm pretty much playing on my own.
In a way, your point kind of contradicts itself. If the drummer has played to a click and has really nailed it, then if you play to that drummer, you are in essence playing to the click anyway.
Like you, if I'm putting down the initial bit with the drummer, I don't use a click. If I'm starting off on my own, now I do. It's good for any percussionists coming in later and it provides a time reference.
Time reference.
That's an important phrase because in all the debates about clicks and not using clicks, there is always the implication that a click takes away the 'feel' or groove or humanness. Which is actually a lot of raffifia. Aside from the fact that use of a click doesn't ensure metronomic beat/time {people may still have problems hitting a consistent beat}, what a click does is provide an anchor point around which vocalists and instrumentalists can dance. If you know your onions, you can skip about the metronomic beat and skilfully weave in and out without throwing off the actual timing and anyone else that's going to play in that song, even if they're sometimes thrown by what you're doing, they've got a reference they can stick with. And that's all it is. A reference.
It's like dancing to disco music. The thing that many disco songs from the late 70s/early 80s aimed for was 120 beats per minute. But if you were dancing to said track, a good dancer could weave in and out of that strict timing while never departing from the rhythm and groove of the song.
So it goes with a click.
 
Can other people play to your rock solid internal metronome?

The last drummer I played with was certain that there was drift in one of my recordings, and I acquiesced to his knowledge because he is an actual musician.... we listenned to it several times, and counted out the beats.... then he smiled and said, "it IS in time! But YOU have a signature delay."

Many of my songs have a certain hold/carry but the time stays true to the song.... the drummer was predicting change where there is none.
 
Well, if for no other reasons than to make miroslav happy, and keep jimmy out of a fight, I played with a click tonight. It does serve a purpose - especially up front like the "starting gun" of a race. I turn it off for the secondary tracks because it's just me here.... but if someone else was playing, then I'd turn it on for sure in every part.
 
In these days of kick arse MIDI drums, there's really no reason to play to a metronome or a drumstick click if you're worried about the sterility of it all. Take the "you lose the feel" argument out of it by programming some basic drums with the feel you want and get everyone to play to that.

If by "losing the feel" you mean the ability to wander on and off tempo, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I argue that feel is about the correct tempo and the relationship of the notes to it, but whatever floats your boat.
 
In these days of kick arse MIDI drums, there's really no reason to play to a metronome or a drumstick click if you're worried about the sterility of it all. Take the "you lose the feel" argument out of it by programming some basic drums with the feel you want and get everyone to play to that.

If by "losing the feel" you mean the ability to wander on and off tempo, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I argue that feel is about the correct tempo and the relationship of the notes to it, but whatever floats your boat.

So far the only thing I've heard coming from cubase is something that sounds like a sonar blip - and Yellow Submarine has already been written. When I lose the "feel" it means I AM going off time - due to the distraction. As I mentioned earlier the click reminds me of a fly in your face - or maybe a strobe light that you're trying to write to. Believe it or not, things impact different people differently.

I do not speak in musical terms, but I write songs. When I try to talk to musicians about sound, they look at me like I'm from outer space. But, when at long last they produce the sound I was talking about, it makes more sense to them.
 
Not to start a fight in any way here, but every single time I heard anyone say they have perfect time in the last 20 years of my life, they were quite incorrect. Just saying.

"I can play quite consistently, yes."
Good job I never said I'm perfect then. ;]
It's certainly not like I was born being able to do it either. It still takes practise. But whether you use a metronome or not, you can get to that same point. Go through every last one of the musicians that you feel have great timing whilst they play and see how many of them did and didn't practise to a metronome.
Some people need it, other don't. I just happen to be in the don'ts.
 
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