A Few Newbie Questions

[thunderbread]

Hi there. I've been aspiring to record some stuff for a while now and trying to learn how and all that. I have experimented with noise music using a Guitar Hero mic and Audacity, but that's pretty much my experience right there.

I've decided that analog is the method I'd rather go with, just for simple lo-fi stuff. But I'm really not familiar with tape at all; I've listened to some language-learning tapes...

My first question is- how do you split up songs on a tape? Tapes hold around 30 minutes of sound, right? So... if you have a tape in your deck, and you record a 5 min. song onto it, now what? Do you let the tape play forward a bit then start recording the next song? I feel like that would mess up the mixing; every song would have the same mix. On the other hand, using only a small fraction of a tape and then moving to a new tape seems like a waste.

And, do you any of you have any experience or thoughts on this process: My plan was to record to tape and also store that info on the computer to eventually burn to cd. I'd love to get an 8 track, but I don't know if I can snag one. I was thinking if I can't, I could get a 4 track, record all the tracks I can onto one tape, and then if I need more, have a tape player playing the first tape while I record onto the second tape. Then I would load these into Audacity or something and blend them. Have any of you done something similar?

 

[diggy_dude]

Songs are usually mixed separately, then the mastering engineer decides what order they come in on the record and how much blank space should be between songs.

And do not buy a recorder on Ebay unless you just want to throw away a lot of money on a machine that doesn't work. These are usually sold by estate sale scavengers who don't know squat about the goods they sell, or how to pack them correctly for shipping. Check the HR free ads forum for an honest deal from a seller who knows about the machine he's selling.

 

[thunderbread]

Songs are usually mixed separately, then the mastering engineer decides what order they come in on the record and how much blank space should be between songs.

And do not buy a recorder on Ebay unless you just want to throw away a lot of money on a machine that doesn't work. These are usually sold by estate sale scavengers who don't know squat about the goods they sell, or how to pack them correctly for shipping. Check the HR free ads forum for an honest deal from a seller who knows about the machine he's selling.

So, you would generally put one song per tape?

And uh, thanks for the note about ebay. But what about seller ratings and that? Sometimes the seller will be a music store, which I assume would know about the product they're selling. I was trying to get my hands on a Tascam 488, and ebay seemed to be the only place that had them. I'll check the free ads forum I guess.

 

[diggy_dude]

Yes, I think I would do each song on a separate tape rather than try to space them out properly on the same tape.

A reputable music store might be a safe bet. As for the typical Ebay seller's reputation, they probably didn't get all of their feedback from just tape decks or other fragile items.

I wouldn't advise you to get a 488 if you want good analog sound. Packing eight tracks onto a cassette designed for four tracks would give you very poor sound quality.

 

[thunderbread]

Thanks for the info; certainly helped out. But:

I wouldn't advise you to get a 488 if you want good analog sound. Packing eight tracks onto a cassette designed for four tracks would give you very poor sound quality.

Isn't the 488 an eight track?

 

[Beck]

Nothing wrong with eBay. It’s like everything else, including cyberstores and walk-in local music shops. There are good ones and bad ones. It’s not an eBay problem. You just need to do your homework… ask questions and know what questions to ask. You’re at the beginning of the research phase right now and that’s where you should stay for some time. Nothing at all wrong with the Tascam 488 either or many other 8-track on cassette products. They came out later than the 4-track versions and met or exceeded the performance of their 4-track predecessors. You can do a lot with 4 or 8 track on cassette but you must learn the fundamentals of recording and that will take some time. About half the vintage stuff I bought new when it was introduced in the 80’s and 90’s. Most everything else I’ve bought on eBay with great results. The biggest thing for you now is acquiring knowledge and technique. If I were in your place I wouldn’t even be looking at products just yet.

Also, if using tape, cassette or otherwise you can spread several songs across one cassette tape and decide order and gap between songs latter. If your using a 90 minute cassette tape at twice normal cassette speed you'll have about 22 minutes of run time per tape. You can get several songs on there with plenty of silence in between.

 

[diggy_dude]

Ebay isn't all bad. I've bought most of my gear there too. But I've bought several tape decks that were either DOA or failed soon after I received them. It's a crap shoot.

 

[diggy_dude]

Isn't the 488 an eight track?

Yes. But cassette tapes were designed to carry four tracks. The 488 and other cassette 8-track recorders squeeze two tracks into the width of a single normal track.

 

[briank]

Hi there. I've been aspiring to record some stuff for a while now and trying to learn how and all that. I've decided that analog is the method I'd rather go with, just for simple lo-fi stuff. But I'm really not familiar with tape at all

Howdy! First of all, I presume you're talking about cassette tapes and not open reel. Being a novice, I would suggest you stick with cassette and that's what my advice will focus on.

My first question is- how do you split up songs on a tape? Tapes hold around 30 minutes of sound, right?

It all depends on the tape and speed. Tapes will generally be marked for 30-90mins; however, that still depends on what speed you're recording at. Most Portastudios will let you switch between a higher and lower speed. Higher speed means a little less hiss and more reliable quality, however it also means you get less recording time per tape.

So... if you have a tape in your deck, and you record a 5 min. song onto it, now what? Do you let the tape play forward a bit then start recording the next song?

Yes, doing this is no biggie. No sense in wasting tape. Tape recorders generally have a counter so you can write down the counter position to easily find the next song on the tape with fast forward/rewind.

I feel like that would mess up the mixing; every song would have the same mix.

Not necessarily, the mix depends on how you record. There's no rule that says you have to keep the same level settings from song to song. You will be recording and mixing one song at a time anyway, and there will be meters on the recorder to show you how the levels change from song to song.

And, do you any of you have any experience or thoughts on this process: ... I'd love to get an 8 track, but I don't know if I can snag one. I was thinking if I can't, I could get a 4 track...

Personally, I would suggest staying with 4-track on cassette, sound quality will definitely suffer going beyond this even if your aim is "lo-fi." Save 8-track for if you eventually take an interest in open reel tape.

My plan was to record to tape and also store that info on the computer to eventually burn to cd...[snip]...record all the tracks I can onto one tape, and then if I need more, have a tape player playing the first tape while I record onto the second tape. Then I would load these into Audacity or something and blend them. Have any of you done something similar?

Sure, this can be done...however, if you want to keep all four tracks separate and use Audacity to mix them, you will need an interface with at least four mono channels. Portastudios generally have direct track outputs that allow you to take each individual track out to a separate mixer or digital interface.

As for what 4-track cassette recorder, I would steer you toward a Tascam 424 of some sort. I agree with everyone about being cautious buying on eBay. Never buy one that says "untested" since, as pointed out, you'll probably end up getting a broken or beat up and soon-to-be broken unit found at a garage sale and re-sold by some yahoo who doesn't know how to pack and ship properly. You COULD get lucky, but save gambling for the casino, says I! I agree you should do your homework, figure out what unit you want, how to spot bu!!sh!t in an ad, and don't be too impulsive. Figure out what fair prices are for the units you're looking at so you don't overpay--the best case is to get a good unit that works fine for a good price, so if you try it and don't like it, you can sell the unit for what you paid for it. Speaking of, it doesn't hurt to scope out your local garage sales for a Portastudio so long as you're going in with some savvy. Bring a tape, a microphone and a pair of headphones so you can try before you buy, you could get a good deal that way (or save yourself from getting burned!)

 

[diggy_dude]

As for what 4-track cassette recorder, I would steer you toward a Tascam 424 of some sort.

+1

I bought a beautiful 424 Mk II from an HR member. I still can't believe he let it go.

 

[thunderbread]

Thanks for the reply, briank. There's something I'm still confused about though:

Not necessarily, the mix depends on how you record. There's no rule that says you have to keep the same level settings from song to song. You will be recording and mixing one song at a time anyway, and there will be meters on the recorder to show you how the levels change from song to song.

Let me make sure I'm getting my terms straight here: by the mix, I was referring to the different volume levels of the different tracks that you set with the faders; is this correct?

From what I've heard, I thought you would find a mix you like after the raw tracks are recorded, so you'd be fiddling with the faders after you have recorded. If you have more than one track on the same tape, what stops the levels from being the same on every song?

 

[jpmorris]

If you have more than one track on the same tape, what stops the levels from being the same on every song?

Everything, basically. Microphone placement, performance, instrument type, differing output levels on keyboards (some patches will be louder than others, solo will usually be quieter than chords, etc etc)

 

[thunderbread]

Everything, basically. Microphone placement, performance, instrument type, differing output levels on keyboards (some patches will be louder than others, solo will usually be quieter than chords, etc etc)

I mean the levels set with the faders.

 

[diggy_dude]

I mean the levels set with the faders.

The recorder has separate inputs and outputs for each track. You mix the raw tracks down onto another (two track) recorder.

 

[thunderbread]

The recorder has separate inputs and outputs for each track. You mix the raw tracks down onto another (two track) recorder.

Oh really? Then what is the point of having a built-in mixer like that?

 

[diggy_dude]

Oh really? Then what is the point of having a built-in mixer like that?

The tracks on the built-in tape deck go back through the mixer channels and out the "main" stereo outputs during mixdown. You send that to a stereo deck or sound card to record the final mix.

You should download the owner's manual for the unit you intend to buy so you'll be familiar with its capabilities.

 

[thunderbread]

Oh okay. I was thinking of mixing down onto a computer to burn the songs onto cd. One thing though- if my computer just has a regular sound card that wasn't intended for stuff like this, wouldn't that make the final mix sound bad? By trying out analog, I was hoping to avoid the use of a computer as much as possible. I think I read that it's possible to mix down to an external cd recorder, but I don't know if that would be possible if I tried to mix 2 separate tapes onto one cd to get more than 4 tracks...

 

[jpmorris]

I think I read that it's possible to mix down to an external cd recorder, but I don't know if that would be possible if I tried to mix 2 separate tapes onto one cd to get more than 4 tracks...

Yeah, you can mix down to anything that will take an analogue input, really, be it a digital medium or some kind of analogue tape. It is generally recommended that you mix down to a higher quality medium than the multitrack, though.

What you can't really do is mix two separate cassette tapes at once - they will drift out of sync. Some decks can be synchronised with the right equipment, but you have to sacrifice at least one track on each machine to store the necessary control codes.
I have done this on 8-track reel-to-reel machines, but from what I hear it doesn't work properly with cassettes at all since the thin tape will tend to stretch slightly and they won't keep fully in step, even with a proper synchronizer unit. Probably get phasing issues.

AFAIK the only real way to synchronize two cassette tapes is to pull them into a DAW and line them up digitally.

 

[briank]

Oh okay. I was thinking of mixing down onto a computer to burn the songs onto cd. One thing though- if my computer just has a regular sound card that wasn't intended for stuff like this, wouldn't that make the final mix sound bad?

For the novice recordist, the mixdown soundcard really is the least of your worries. You will be fine sending your 2-track stereo mixdown into your computer's stereo inputs for now if that's the format you wish to mix to.

By trying out analog, I was hoping to avoid the use of a computer as much as possible. I think I read that it's possible to mix down to an external cd recorder,

Yes, this is possible and fairly common...though at the end of the day, a CD recorder is just as digital as computer software.

but I don't know if that would be possible if I tried to mix 2 separate tapes onto one cd to get more than 4 tracks...

Not quite sure I follow you here, are you meaning that you want to submix your 4-track mixes to 2 tracks on CD, then run those two tracks back off the CD and into the tape again (this would essentially get you 6 tracks with two of them being the pre-mixed sum of the previous four tracks)? If so, this is called track bouncing and it's a little advanced, personally I would advise that you stick to working with four track mixes for now. Mix your four tracks down to two tracks stereo (also called summing or mixdown) and call it a day in my humble opinion! Once you've gotten the hang of doing that, then you can get more adventurous!

 

[thunderbread]

AFAIK the only real way to synchronize two cassette tapes is to pull them into a DAW and line them up digitally.

Ah, this is what I intended to do.

Not quite sure I follow you here, are you meaning that you want to submix your 4-track mixes to 2 tracks on CD, then run those two tracks back off the CD and into the tape again (this would essentially get you 6 tracks with two of them being the pre-mixed sum of the previous four tracks)? If so, this is called track bouncing and it's a little advanced, personally I would advise that you stick to working with four track mixes for now. Mix your four tracks down to two tracks stereo (also called summing or mixdown) and call it a day in my humble opinion! Once you've gotten the hang of doing that, then you can get more adventurous!

What I meant was this- I would record 4 separate tracks on 2 separate tapes, 4 on each tape. I would run each tape separately into one file in Audacity, so I can use a 4 track recorder to create a song with 8 tracks, then burn it to CD. IS this doable?