Buss Compression on the Master Fader...???

[NYMorningstar]

the same can be said for all instruments in a mix with master buss compression. once the threshold is passed it has a finite range (1-3db) in which to sit with everything else. your threshold and gain reduction become your guide for signal level balancing.

the same general concept i think applies to effects and eq as well. the compressor tells you when your out of balance by emphasizing whatever crosses the threshold...

It's a bad habit to get into mixing with your eyes. Let your ears be your guide.

What's going to sound better when your guitar crosses your threshold of concern, using EQ or compression? You tell me cause my ears are plugged and I can only see the levels. Farview as usual hits the nail on the head. Use a compressor to sound good and tame your dynamics another way if possible although in the live situation for rock it's almost inevitable.(or as Sarah would say inefitable )



Keep in mind that alot of these comments here get confusing because some peeps are thinking live mixing and some are thinking post tracking. You wouldn't mix the same in the two situations. More likely you wouldn't mix the same in any situation anyhow but the general concepts hold up pretty well in both, use your ears.

 

[themdla]

It's a bad habit to get into mixing with your eyes. Let your ears be your guide.

What's going to sound better when your guitar crosses your threshold of concern, using EQ or compression? You tell me cause my ears are plugged and I can only see the levels. Farview as usual hits the nail on the head. Use a compressor to sound good and tame your dynamics another way if possible although in the live situation for rock it's almost inevitable.(or as Sarah would say inefitable )



Keep in mind that alot of these comments here get confusing because some peeps are thinking live mixing and some are thinking post tracking. You wouldn't mix the same in the two situations. More likely you wouldn't mix the same in any situation anyhow but the general concepts hold up pretty well in both, use your ears.

Just to clarify I’m not talking about using meters or theory as my only guides to mixing.

I always believe your ears and taste should be the final judge.

What I am describing is what I believe the role of the compressor is in mixing with master buss compression from the start of a mix.

If I set my threshold to -15dbFS then every signal will remain unaffected by compression until it hits said threshold. By the same logic you could say that any signal receiving compression is at least -15dbFS in volume.

If I were to mix every track in a mix to the point where it begins to receive -2db of gain reduction you could also say that... all instruments in this mix are at least -15dbFS (+/- several db).

The fun part...

so lets say I’ve got all my tracks @ -15dbFS based on the gain reduction I’m seeing on the compressor but the levels still aren't perfectly balanced because my bass track has 10db of dynamic range (-15db to -25db)
And my guitar has 5db of dynamic range (-15db to -20db).

Once I start pushing the bass into the compressor further (by raising its level) some it's dynamic range will be reduced. Let’s say I push it enough that the bass now has a dynamic range of 7db. Now that signal has a much closer dynamic range to my guitar track (5db) and is also at a very similar level (~15db +/- a couple db).

So this is my starting point...

I can push any instrument further into or away from the threshold to either achieve more or less compression to taste depending on which instruments need more or less compression and which instruments sound better with more or less dynamic range.

if I really love the sound of super compressed bass or drums I can push them further into the compressor and reduce their dynamic range until I’m getting -6db of gain reduction, if that’s the sound I want.

But what this also does is prevent me from pushing any instrument louder than the rest without it also affecting the mix as a whole. If the was no compression I could make the guitar the loudest instrument in the mix and all other instruments would be unaffected.

Which maybe what you wanna do... depends on the sound your going for I guess

 

[miroslav]

The only problem with that perspective is that a compressor is not just about evenly controlling level that same way for all elements.

The Attack and Release settings will cause the compression to react differently to different elements
So...the gain reduction will not always be the same on your bass if the accompanying elements cause a different trigger point/rate.

See...when you are individually compressing...then that's fine, you can guesstimate how much level reduction will occur because there is only one trigger...but with master bus compression...EVERYTHING is a trigger.
Using a multi-band compressor tries to work around that problem by focusing on specific frequency bands…but still…it’s not that straightforward even for a multi-band compressor to separate out each element so that the amount of gain reduction is always relative to some setting for every element at all times.

 

[mixsit]

Just to clarify I’m not talking about using meters or theory as my only guides to mixing.

I always believe your ears and taste should be the final judge.

What I am describing is what I believe the role of the compressor is in mixing with master buss compression from the start of a mix.

If I set my threshold to -15dbFS then every signal will remain unaffected by compression until it hits said threshold. By the same logic you could say that any signal receiving compression is at least -15dbFS in volume.

If I were to mix every track in a mix to the point where it begins to receive -2db of gain reduction you could also say that... all instruments in this mix are at least -15dbFS (+/- several db).

The fun part...

so lets say I’ve got all my tracks @ -15dbFS based on the gain reduction I’m seeing on the compressor but the levels still aren't perfectly balanced because my bass track has 10db of dynamic range (-15db to -25db)
And my guitar has 5db of dynamic range (-15db to -20db).

Once I start pushing the bass into the compressor further (by raising its level) some it's dynamic range will be reduced. Let’s say I push it enough that the bass now has a dynamic range of 7db. Now that signal has a much closer dynamic range to my guitar track (5db) and is also at a very similar level (~15db +/- a couple db).

So this is my starting point...

I can push any instrument further into or away from the threshold to either achieve more or less compression to taste depending on which instruments need more or less compression and which instruments sound better with more or less dynamic range.

if I really love the sound of super compressed bass or drums I can push them further into the compressor and reduce their dynamic range until I’m getting -6db of gain reduction, if that’s the sound I want.

But what this also does is prevent me from pushing any instrument louder than the rest without it also affecting the mix as a whole. If the was no compression I could make the guitar the loudest instrument in the mix and all other instruments would be unaffected.

Which maybe what you wanna do... depends on the sound your going for I guess

A few more relevant points –again (and you may know this but just not writing it) – the master comp is seeing the total –sum- of the tracks. Can’t use individual track’s level as the guide. Also as I mentioned before the attack time enters into how the comp ‘sees’ and reacts (or not reacts!
Next would be to consider that mixing into the master comp is (generally) a very different result and feel than leveling at the track level.
Your approach above (just talking out the theory of it here, I understand seems an odd way or reasoning as a methodology or starting point.
Lastly, remember everything that hits' the master comp pulls the others down, thus definite 'feel and reaction components there. You are moving into a realm of modulating the whole based on what and how the comp reacts to the levels, up-stream dynamics -and the comp attack time!
BTY/FWIW I’m in the get the mix happening, levels,(big and/or most of the mix levels), eq’s! etc before master comp (and limiting). oops. ..camp.

 

[mixsit]

Just to through this in, Gearsluts I think it was had a poll or something a while back on '2-bus attack times'. I am quite struck at the high percent that that go 5, 10 or less ms range as 'typical. Yikes. 50+ (way plus very often! here.
(But then our ears're all getting used to that declaw'd/neutered rok.

 

[miroslav]

But then our ears're all getting used to that declaw'd/neutered rok.

Yeah...Off with their heads!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

so lets say I’ve got all my tracks @ -15dbFS based on the gain reduction I’m seeing on the compressor but the levels still aren't perfectly balanced because my bass track has 10db of dynamic range (-15db to -25db)
And my guitar has 5db of dynamic range (-15db to -20db).

The erroneous point here is in the assumed concept of "balance". Not only is there nothing that says that your bass should have similar dynamic properties as your guitar (would you really expect, for example, a Rick-O-Bass played with a funk thump to have a similar dynamic profile as a strummed distorted electric rhythm guitar?), but there's also no direct correlation between "balanced" dynamics and "balanced" sound.

This is one of those examples where, while you are not intending to mix by sight, it sounds like you're perhaps unintentionally starting off exactly that way.

"Balance" can only be determined by the ear, not by the meters. Additionally, sometimes "unbalanced" is what you really want. Do you always want the bass to be as loud as the guitar in the mix all the time, and vice versa?

I can push any instrument further into or away from the threshold to either achieve more or less compression to taste depending on which instruments need more or less compression and which instruments sound better with more or less dynamic range.

As implied above, this ignores the fact that when you're pushing the gain of an individual track on the mix, you're changing the mix itself; i.e. you're making that instrument louder in the mix, simply to get the advantage of the compression effect. If that's indeed what you want, fine, but if all you're really looking for is the compression effect but you have the mix volumes where you want, then you're better off simply applying individual compression to that instrument track instead of pushing it up into the bus compressor.

G.

 

[themdla]

A few more relevant points –again (and you may know this but just not writing it) – the master comp is seeing the total –sum- of the tracks. Can’t use individual track’s level as the guide. Also as I mentioned before the attack time enters into how the comp ‘sees’ and reacts (or not reacts!
Next would be to consider that mixing into the master comp is (generally) a very different result and feel than leveling at the track level.
Your approach above (just talking out the theory of it here, I understand seems an odd way or reasoning as a methodology or starting point.
Lastly, remember everything that hits' the master comp pulls the others down, thus definite 'feel and reaction components there. You are moving into a realm of modulating the whole based on what and how the comp reacts to the levels, up-stream dynamics -and the comp attack time!
BTY/FWIW I’m in the get the mix happening, levels,(big and/or most of the mix levels), eq’s! etc before master comp (and limiting). oops. ..camp.

Yeah I wasn't really taking attack time into my consideration and I think I understand what you and miroslav are saying.

Provided the attack was set fast enough I guessing my explanation would be more accurate. Then again I’m still trying to wrap my head around what a buss compressor does in theory when used from the start of a mix.

I believe that the setting of attack time and release will be dependant on your taste, the tempo of the music, and the amount of punch you need to retain.

In general though, the peaks and the top of a dynamic range for a given uncompressed instrument can be gauged by the threshold and attack settings of a master buss compressor...???

Or

If the track has inline compression configured to just tame peaks and retain full dynamic range then the "top" of said instrument will hit the threshold and begin to have its dynamic range reduced in accordance with your settings?

 

[themdla]

The erroneous point here is in the assumed concept of "balance". Not only is there nothing that says that your bass should have similar dynamic properties as your guitar (would you really expect, for example, a Rick-O-Bass played with a funk thump to have a similar dynamic profile as a strummed distorted electric rhythm guitar?), but there's also no direct correlation between "balanced" dynamics and "balanced" sound.

This is one of those examples where, while you are not intending to mix by sight, it sounds like you're perhaps unintentionally starting off exactly that way.

"Balance" can only be determined by the ear, not by the meters. Additionally, sometimes "unbalanced" is what you really want. Do you always want the bass to be as loud as the guitar in the mix all the time, and vice versa?As implied above, this ignores the fact that when you're pushing the gain of an individual track on the mix, you're changing the mix itself; i.e. you're making that instrument louder in the mix, simply to get the advantage of the compression effect. If that's indeed what you want, fine, but if all you're really looking for is the compression effect but you have the mix volumes where you want, then you're better off simply applying individual compression to that instrument track instead of pushing it up into the bus compressor.

G.

I have to concede to you Glen I think you are right.

I’m trying to express what I assume (based on the theory in my head) its purpose is in this role.

I agree that whatever it’s used for it must sound good and be mixed by ear to taste.

and if that means that when the bass reaches a certain level of compression on the master buss and the whole mix sounds amazing/right, even though it doesn't fit into the model I’m describing (too many variables to write an all encompassing theorem), then so be it.

I won’t get in the way of something sounding good if it doesn't fit my model.

But I’m also trying to approach this in a bit of a scientific manner to quantify the difference between success and failure when it comes to applying buss compression.

 

[themdla]

prolly like everything in mixing and recording.....moderation is the key

 

[miroslav]

In general though, the peaks and the top of a dynamic range for a given uncompressed instrument can be gauged by the threshold and attack settings of a master buss compressor...???

Master buss is your stereo mix...of ALL instruments/vocals...so you can't really use a master bus compressor to focus on any single element.

Sure...you may hear it as such...but in reality you are messing with everything simultaneously, and there is no one setting that will really be perfect throughout the mix....it's always a trade-off.

On one beat...the snare comes in 8 ms ahead of the bass guitar...on the next beat it's the other ways around....so no matter how fast your attack is...it's never reacting the same way to any one, individual element when used on the master bus.

But like some were suggesting...if/when you build your mix track by track WITH a comp always on the master bus...you then make mixing decisions based on how each subsequent track causes the comp to react when it's added to existing tracks.
This is why it's not a very exact science like you are seeing it.
Yeah…you CAN build mix in that manner…but you kinda’ put a lot of it into the hands of the comp…because a fader adjustment on the bass will cause the MB comp to react differently and now your guitar sounds funny…etc…etc..etc.
This is why most people say keep it mild-n-smooth when using it on the MB…though it’s all in how you hear the music and if it works for you.
I guess if you really like everything stir fried to the max…at some point the comp is so agressivly controlling the mix…small changes become less and less significant….it’s a blur....but some folks have made that their signature sound, and it works for them.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But I’m also trying to approach this in a bit of a scientific manner to quantify the difference between success and failure when it comes to applying buss compression.

I'm a big science guy, but I think maybe you're trying to over-analyze this one.

As I gather it, these guys are mostly talking very light compression just applied over the top of the mix just to tighten things up a little. Think of it like when you change the tire on your car; after it's on and you drop the jack, you just go through the lug nuts one more time to make sure they are properly tightened.

It's not really meant to balance all the different parts, or to make them sound the same, or even to provide dynamic control (1.2:1 - 1.5:1 actually does very little in the way of dynamic control.), it's just a little bit of dynamic aural polish is all.

Frankly, I often do the same thing, the only difference is I would rather wait until the mix is done to do it - or more importantly IMHO, to see if I even WANT to do it, whereas others prefer to mix with it already there, applying it as a default assumption from the beginning. Like Miro said, it's almost as much a matter of personal preference and style as it is anything else, and that's not the kind of thing that can really be scientifically quantized.

G.

 

[mixsit]

Take a fairly simple (full dynamics) mix (drum bass and guitar whatever) with a balance that seem about normal, and apply 1.5:1, then play with the attack time and threshold. Check out how just a few db reduction at 5ms picks up on your nice thumping kick and snare, and how fast it tames the kit. Now jump your attack up to 100 or more ms. Note the threshold has to come down to get a similar reduction, as well as the fact (ok, not fact exactlly..) that the kit now retains their transient, kick doesn't suck down, and now it's more likely riding whole phrases! on the guitar and bass.
Two completely different places to go, and reasons to go there.
Do um.. let's say 10-20 ms, same mix, not pop a way hot vocal in there.
Now mix ducks vocal. Another place (and different reason') to go.
Now consider that any one of those instrument in that mix can have their own dynamic profile modified at the track level -the intent/feel is now changed there, as well as how the mast comp sees them.

 

[NL5]

It's why SSL became so ubiquitous.....

Thought it was worth repeating.

I'd bet 99% of the songs you hear on the radio were mixed with a comp on the mix buss. Maybe more.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'd bet 99% of the songs you hear on the radio were mixed with a comp on the mix buss. Maybe more.

I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better argument against doing it .

G.