micing snare with sm57

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shackrock

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i never seem to yield as good of results as i hear other people, using an sm57 (just as they would!).

mic is pointed at the middle of the snare, only a few inches away from the snare drum. connected to a -10db pad, then DMP2 preamp, then into delta 44 - on it's own track. Even when the mic is pointed the complete other direction as the hi hat, i get a lot of bleed. but my main problem is just that it is never really thick. must i double mic it (one on the bottom)? i hope not, ha. i mean, i've heard great results with just a 57 on top - i am wondering if i am doing something wrong here?
 
Maybe this has something to do with it and maybe not:

Try a different preamp. I've NEVER used a preamp that needed a pad to prevent input overload from a 57 on a snare!
 
Thickness comes from compressed overheads. The snare mic is usually just to add a little more snap. I mainly use it for severe EQing and as an isolated effects send. Most of my real snare sound comes from the OH's.
 
I agree with Tex. Most of the "meat" of the snare sound is in the overheads. Also try backing the mic away from the snare. Out about 6" from the shell pointed at the rim or maybe even a little lower.
 
I realized I contradicted myself because before somebody asked how to get more snap and air and I said it should come from the OH's. The truth is that 90% of the tone comes from the OH's. Use the snare mic to fill in or accentuate whatever is missing. Something like TR mentioned is a good thing to try.

I mainly EQ the hell out of the snare mic to give it whatever is missing because it's a lot harder to EQ the OH's without screwing up the rest of the kit. The Snare mic is also great to use effects on without screwing up the OH sound.
 
Don't discount the possibility that the snare drum itself sounds shitty.
 
yup what whoopy said... perhaps try tuning the snare through a set of headphones, not the easiest task, but you might find that what sounds good live may not be what works in the studio
 
about mic pointing:
do not point exactly at the middle of the top skin. That's where all the tension from hitting it comes to getter and will do a lot of sound canceling. Better to point about 1/3 from the middle.

Also the 2nd mic underneath the snare is always cool. you can use any ol' crapy mic there. Remeber it's to catch that dirty 'crack' from the snare. This is also why it's not bad to have the snare 'clipped' a little, it will sometimes get more power in the 'crack'. just experiment with it.

a sm57beta is also a great snare mic!
 
I found a thread here that really helped me thicken up the drums (sadly the name has escaped me and I forgot to subscribe to it- so do a little searching, and if I find it I'll let you know) but essentially it was a different method for using the overheads which greatly reduce the need for snare and tom mics.

Basically- place the left overhead mic directly above the snare pointed straight down at it, the distance of 2 stick lengths away. The right overhead mic, is placed over the drummers right shoulder pointed directly at the snare, again, 2 stick lengths away from the center of the skin. Essential to this all is that the two overhead mics are equidistant from the center of the beater head of the kick drum. This insures that the overheads are in phase, and will place the snare and the kick in the center of the sound landscape. Then just add your kick mic, and if you feel the need a fourth mic on the snare to fill it out. Tom mics really aren't necessary with this method, but add them if you feel the need and can successfully keep everything in phase and sounding good.

This method may sound strange if it's new to you, but try it, it does work! :D I was skeptical at first but I'm now a convert.:) The only problem with this is that the overhead mics have a tendency of getting in the way a little!:(
This should greatly reduce your reliance on your snare mic.
 
p.s.- TO ALL YOU SENIOR MEMBERS THAT WANT TO TEAR INTO ME FOR COMMENTING ON A OLD THREAD- KISS MY ASS. THERE ARE NEW PEOPLE FINDING OLD INFO ALL THE TIME! JUST 'CAUSE THE THREAD IS OLD DOESN'T MEAN THE INFO IS NO LONGER HELPFUL TO NEW PEOPLE! (BigKenny-this includes you. Stop tearing into new members just for being new. You've done this multiple times to numerous people now.)
 
Harley13 said:
I found a thread here that really helped me thicken up the drums (sadly the name has escaped me and I forgot to subscribe to it- so do a little searching, and if I find it I'll let you know) but essentially it was a different method for using the overheads which greatly reduce the need for snare and tom mics.

Basically- place the left overhead mic directly above the snare pointed straight down at it, the distance of 2 stick lengths away. The right overhead mic, is placed over the drummers right shoulder pointed directly at the snare, again, 2 stick lengths away from the center of the skin. Essential to this all is that the two overhead mics are equidistant from the center of the beater head of the kick drum. This insures that the overheads are in phase, and will place the snare and the kick in the center of the sound landscape. Then just add your kick mic, and if you feel the need a fourth mic on the snare to fill it out. Tom mics really aren't necessary with this method, but add them if you feel the need and can successfully keep everything in phase and sounding good.

This method may sound strange if it's new to you, but try it, it does work! :D I was skeptical at first but I'm now a convert.:) The only problem with this is that the overhead mics have a tendency of getting in the way a little!:(
This should greatly reduce your reliance on your snare mic.
Click to expand...

It works pretty good for me. This method is called The Recorderman Method.
 
Harley13 you can move those over heads out more but be sure to keep the total footage equal I done it as much as 4' !
I've know this method of micing as the California style but may have a real name somewhere out there.I agree it sure is a great way to do over heads right?
 
dodgeaspen -are you sure about the method name cause I really wasn't sure. An old timer recording engineer back in the late seventies called it the California style when he showed it to me with no other explanation that I can recall for that seams like that was several life times ago.The seventies much like the sixties if you can remember them you really weren't there.
 
moresound said:
dodgeaspen -are you sure about the method name cause I really wasn't sure. An old timer recording engineer back in the late seventies called it the California style when he showed it to me with no other explanation that I can recall for that seams like that was several life times ago.The seventies much like the sixties if you can remember them you really weren't there.
Click to expand...


I can speak to this because I'm really old and WAS there...

When the track count started growing in the late 60's, engineers started to add mics to the various instruments to get a bigger more inclusive sound. The drum kit being the one they began this practice with. When the track count was 2, 3 or 4, the mic count was (of course) also small. Unless you were George Martin and could 'reduce' the tracks to other machines...etc...it didnt make much sense to add a lot of mic lines to something you couldnt control. Most kits were done with a maximum of three mics mixed to one track.

I first encountered two overheads around 73 or so and that engineer called it The California method also. The recorderman method is the same only the measurements using the drumsticks as rulers is somewhat different. Since he was around then too, I can only assume he learned this in much the same way and simplified it for the purpose of explaining it on the net.

Either way, it is a tried and true system. It helps to have a room set up for drums as having control of reflections when doing overheads of any kind can certainly lead to problems with flutter echoes and low-end buildup in the corners and the first order harmonics coming back to the mics out of time and phase can really kick the hell out of a well-played drum track.

Its really a bitch to fix later.

I try to use a spaced pair on my overheads as I find a bit more stereo imaging from the kit this way. I EQ out any of the lowend as I want the specific kik drum mics and the kik's tuning to accomplish what I need. So I do get the bright snap from the snare there and the width as well as panning gives it size but the main snare in stereo center is dont with both a top mic and a bottom mic. While I do agree that a lot of mics can be used under the snare, I find that a really tight hyper cardioid dynamic keeps the bleed down as well as giving the 'snares' their true rattle....be it tight and quick or a little loose, you dont get that part with the top head mic only. My favorite mics in this position are the Audix D1 and the Beyer 201 or the Beyer 422. They are all small and easy to place and sound really good for all styles.

Overheads are chosen for style as well as drum kit size. If its blues, jazz, or standard non-heavy rock, its SDC's in either the spaced pair or X/Y. X/Y gives a more focused punch to the kit especially small ones. I will use an LDC pair for heavier stuff with more drums spread over a larger area. Placement of LDC's as overheads is much more critical than SDC's. You have to really know your mics polar pattern to get them right.

THE most important part of multiple mics on a kit is the phase switch. Use it and hear what you've been missing. The boxes that allow partial phase adjustment are incredible tools . Little Labs makes them as well as other companies. Not all mics are 180 degrees out-of-phase with each other. When you discover how to manipulate this part of your setup it opens worlds of sounds and control over the worst environments.
 
Harley13 said:
p.s.- TO ALL YOU SENIOR MEMBERS THAT WANT TO TEAR INTO ME FOR COMMENTING ON A OLD THREAD- KISS MY ASS.
Click to expand...

I snicker at dredging up an old thread AND commend you for actually searching / reading this stuff and not just hopping on asking a question, then disappearing. :D:D
 
Thanks cavedog101 I knew that the right names were out there.
And great explanations! Just goes to show old cavedogs do know a lot of tricks.
Can you go into more depth about the partial phase box is it just adjustable phasing for I have 180 or reverse phase switch on each of my channels on my console which is very helpful at times but now you spark an interest in me.
 
snare

Just try to compress the hell out it. That will really bring out some tones you will never hear otherwise. play it harder too. Recording the snare is one of the hardest things to get right and there's a reason most major studios are still using high end compressors....they work! Try to really squeeze the signal and then crank the output gain.
 
moresound said:
dodgeaspen -are you sure about the method name cause I really wasn't sure. An old timer recording engineer back in the late seventies called it the California style when he showed it to me with no other explanation that I can recall for that seams like that was several life times ago.The seventies much like the sixties if you can remember them you really weren't there.
Click to expand...

I was searching a topic like this a few months back and ran across the thread that mentioned this as the recorder man method. One of the guys posted a link to youtube and that's what they called it. To be honest, I really don't know if it is called something else. Sorry I couldn't help. Try looking for it on youtube.
 
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