Getting nice, up front toms with minimal mics

[thebigcheese]

Right! This guy is a tuning freak. He has great vids. I learned a lot from him about tuning. He is my dad.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bob+gatzen+tuning

Just kidding he is not my dad. But his tuning technique is really in depth. Also.... if you cant get the kit sounding just like you want then send it to me. For free of course. Woohoo!!

Nice, thanks for the link.

Nice try, I like my kit just fine, thank you

I think I'll try out some of those tuning tips sometime this week. They seem a bit easier (and hopefully quicker). As long as I'm taking my kit apart, I might as well try several different things to get the best sound.

 

[ermghoti]

How low in pitch should a 14" tom be able to go? The problem I'm having now is that, although the toms sound nice, they are tuned considerably higher than they used to be, which isn't as useful for the style of music I play.

Some 14" go very low. My instructor's last recording with a band featured his DW 14" maple suspended "floor" tom with a lower pitch than his 22" kick. I have my lower floor tom tuned a bit like a kick drum, with the reso head almost flapping, and the batter head tighter, about like the reso would be if I tuned normally. It gives a huge WHUMP with little clickiness.

 

[RAMI]

How low in pitch should a 14" tom be able to go? The problem I'm having now is that, although the toms sound nice, they are tuned considerably higher than they used to be, which isn't as useful for the style of music I play.

The thing is, each drum has it's own "sweet spot" when it comes to tuning. You can't make a 14" tom sound bigger than it is. Trying to tune it lower than it's natural pitch is why you had all kinds of flapping before. Without hearing your drums, I can guarantee you they sound better now.

Also, keep in mind, what translates as "too high" in pitch to you right now will probably be deeper and fuller sounding than you think once it's recorded.

 

[PhilGood]

Agreed. When I record, my toms always sound lower than how they appear to me behind the kit. Sometimes I think they are still too low after playback, but then I'm always hesitant to change the pitch. It's one of those weird recording things.

 

[thebigcheese]

I'll try to post a clip a little later, but even in the recording I did I still think they sound too high.

 

[thebigcheese]

Ok, here's a link. This is just the overheads so you get a better feel for how they actually sound. Pardon my bad playing

 

[PhilGood]

That sounds better! Much better!

But yes, that sounds a little too tight. Now that you've got them tuned well it shouldn't take much to get the pitch in a nice area. Just start backing off each lug a teenie bit at a time.

Middle tom sounds great!

 

[RAMI]

That sounds better! Much better!

But yes, that sounds a little too tight. Now that you've got them tuned well it shouldn't take much to get the pitch in a nice area. Just start backing off each lug a teenie bit at a time.

Middle tom sounds great!

Yup, you're not far. The lower tom does sound great. The first tom is a little tight, it seems. But the tone is nice. Like Phil said, and you should be a little closer.

I'll tell you what I hear. The toms are not your biggest problem. I don't mean that to be sarcastic. But they sound pretty good. The cymbals are a little harsh, and the snare lacks some crack. After you get your toms to how you like them, work on the snare and you'll have a pretty good sounding recording kit.

 

[thebigcheese]

The snare is definitely being a big pain. It's like half a step higher in pitch than my highest tom, so my drums really don't sound all that nice as a whole. I'll try backing off them a bit. I kinda screwed up how my bass drum sounds, so I'm working on that, too. I want to try doing it without the back head on, but then all places where you screw in the lugs rattle. How do I control that?

Ugh. As for the cymbals... I'm thinking I might just roll off a bit on the high end, or just bump it down a little somewhere up there.

 

[thebigcheese]

That sounds better! Much better!

But yes, that sounds a little too tight. Now that you've got them tuned well it shouldn't take much to get the pitch in a nice area. Just start backing off each lug a teenie bit at a time.

Middle tom sounds great!

Should I be backing off each lug on both sides of the drum, or just worry about one or the other?

 

[PhilGood]

Should I be backing off each lug on both sides of the drum, or just worry about one or the other?

Both sides. Do the same amount for each lug, and I mean a LITTLE at a time. You can do the finger in the center technique while the drum is mounted to check tuning. After a while you'll just get a feel.

On the bass drum, since you're close micing, you want to tune the batter head just slightly tighter than flappy. The front head can be a little tighter.

On the snare, you want the bottom head to be tighter than the top head. I like mine quite a bit tighter. Really tight. The snare bed should be tightened to where it just barely has loose rattle. Don't choke it too much.

 

[thebigcheese]

Ok. I'll do that a little later today. I got through the toms tomorrow and I think they really sound good now. I got them to the point where, if I tap them in the middle with my finger, they really resonate. The kick sounds pretty good when miked, though it needs some EQ to get rid of some of the ickier head noise. I might end up tightening the head just a bit more. Still gotta fix up the snare, tho...

 

[thebigcheese]

Ok, here's my tuning setup as it is now. This is just OHs and the kick (the kick EQed a bit, obviously, because I'm trying out not having a resonant head). I think that, overall, I'm pretty happy with it, though the lowest tom is still a bit problematic for me. The snare might still need a little fine tuning as well because the highest tom still makes it buzz a bit. There's moongel on the top of the snare still, but not on anything else. Thoughts? (yes, the link is the same as before)

 

[tmix]

Sounds good!
IT sounds vibrant, definitely helps with the toms resonating.

You will find that in a mix the higher pitched toms will cut through the mix better.
As things get lower it is a LOT harder to get them to punch through.

Once you add a snare mic you could punch it up a little.
I personally don't worry about the toms making the snare rattle. It goes unnoticed in the mix and is a normal part of the overall kit sound.
I would tend to let the snare ring out as well unless there are some really nasty overtones that spoil the sound.

 

[thebigcheese]

Well, the moongel helps to keep it from rattling from the toms. It's not that big a deal except when I'm playing a section that's just toms and snare (and kick), like at the beginning of one of my songs. It gets really distracting then.

I think that I might be able to help out the low tom now that I'm doing one head on the kick. The OHs don't pick up much (if any) bass from the kick now, so I can boost that part of the spectrum a bit to help out the toms. At this point, I think it might be more the room than anything, though I still want to fiddle a little bit.

Anyway, I think that's about as much help as I need at this point, so thank you to everyone who contributed. I don't know what I'd do without you guys!

Well, probably have sucky drums, I guess...

 

[Elton Bear]

I'm getting so annoyed with my drums now! I've been trying all these techniques out, and it's just not happening. I've been used to small sizes, and now my 16" floor tom just won't make the sound I want it to. The bastard.

*rant over*