Recording Acoustic-How do I get Tony Rice like sound?

[jmorris]

Tony Rice first recorded the Manzanita album in 1975. I sure the technology and equipment we can get our hands on for our home studios is far advanced than the equipment used to record Tony Rice thirty plus years ago --- However that album has some of the best acoustic guitar recording ever.

I could have Tony himself in my house playing his holy grail Martin and still not get that sound recorded. What am I doing wrong - other than not owning matched pairs of Neumann mics?

I have pair of Rode NT5's, a Rode NT1A, AKG Perception 200, Samson C01 and CO2, and several SM57s and SM58s. As an interface, I am using a Tascam FW-1082 into Garage Band. The guitar I am trying to record is a Martin HD-28 with D'Aquisto string most of the time and Red Bear or real tortise shell picks. The guitar sound great when played but I just cannot capture the "real" sound on the guitar when I record.

No matter which mic is used the sound is too bright at the 12th fret position and too boomy at the bridge position. Lots of pick noise close in and the guitar sounds thin when I move the mic away to get rid of the pick noise.

I've read several tutorials on mic selection and placement --- Does anyone have real world advice for getting the sound I hear on Tony's records?

How do I get closer to that sound using the tools I already have?

Any reasonably priced mic upgrades or preamps that will be significant improvement over what I already have to merit the expense?

Thanks for your suggestions!

This is a misconception. Gear back in the day ( in most cases) was great,thats why people ares still looking to get it today and why things like Fairchild 670 compressor will sell for $30,000.00. Its called "vintage". People have this idea that gear 30-40 years ago sucks, it is quit the oposite. Listen to say....Louis Armstrongs "Its a wonderful world", 1967, a stunning recording. The method with which we listened DID suck. Like cheap stereos(hi-fi), scratchy turntables, lots of am radio in mono.

 

[jmorris]

Oh also, I am a firm believer it is not possible to "sound"like someone in many cases. With guitar for example, you cant get the tony sound. Well, you dont have his guitar for one, his room, his preamps and mics, and expertise ( no offense) in capturing the sound. I also believe in particular a guys hands/fingers have a lot to do with the sound from an acoustic instrument. The density of the fingers etc. Stive for the best you can get but do not get frustrated with not getting "that" sound as with Tony. There are many items in the soup that make up his sound.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Oh also, I am a firm believer it is not possible to "sound"like someone in many cases. With guitar for example, you cant get the tony sound.

I am a firm believer in this; not just with acoustic guitar, but with electric as well. You could put a single guitar and amp on a single stage and have 5 different guitarists play it and you will wind up with 5 different sounds.

I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who is a rookie guitarist that has really been working on his guitar skills recently. He said, I'm trying to figure out "my sound - to dial in the sound that works for me." I said that IMHO, he should just keep concentrating on his chops; his "sound" will come out of that on it's own.

G.

 

[Rokket]

I am a firm believer in this; not just with acoustic guitar, but with electric as well. You could put a single guitar and amp on a single stage and have 5 different guitarists play it and you will wind up with 5 different sounds.

I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who is a rookie guitarist that has really been working on his guitar skills recently. He said, I'm trying to figure out "my sound - to dial in the sound that works for me." I said that IMHO, he should just keep concentrating on his chops; his "sound" will come out of that on it's own.

G.

Too true.

Before he died, Stevie Ray Vaughn was playing a gig with Brian Setzer. Brian said in an interview that Stevie was backstage with him, and he asked to play his guitar. He wanted to know how Stevie got that sound. He said he played the guitar, but he just sounded like Brian Setzer. He surmised that all of Stevie's tone was in his hands.

He was right.

But I believe the OP was asking more about how to record that acoustic with more clarity and body, versus comping someone's sound.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But I believe the OP was asking more about how to record that acoustic with more clarity and body, versus comping someone's sound.

Oh, I agree; which is why I didn't mention this until now . But it is a related subject, at least.

Whenever I hear someone say they want to sound like so-and-so, I just think, wouldn't it be a better goal to get so-and-so to want to sound like you?

G.

 

[DumpTruck]

Whoa,

Hold on, I quess I didn't do a good job describing what I'm after....

I not looking to sound just like Tony Rice - thats just absurd for many reasons. I'm looking to get closer to qualilty, tone and texture of his recordings.

As I wrote in the begining, I could have Tony himself in my house and not be able to capture the sound - meaning the real or natural sound of the guitar.

I've heard Tony play a few riffs on a cheapo ply top Washburn guitar he was autographing and when he handed it back to the kid, the kid just kept looking at the guitar like he couldin't believe that sound just came out of it......so yeah the player got a lot to with it. How do do good job recording that player and guitar of his choice?

So, let's say Tony really digs my BBQ'd hambergurs and is over on a Sunday afternoon. When he finishes his last burger, I say, "Hey Tony, how about laying down a couple of tracks on this demo CD I'm working on so I can get some gigs at the local coffee shops?" And Tony says, "Love to. Let me go get 58957 out of my Crown Vic and I'll be right back."

Ok, I've got a chair, the mics I mentioned in the first post, my Tascam interface, Garage Band and a shit eating grin I can't wipe of my face. Now what do I do? Because when I've recorded myself or others, the guitar recorded never sounds as good as the guitar played live. Thin, airy and brittle with too much pick noise not deep and rich and right up front in the mix. I gotta get these coffee shop gigs, so it's gotta sound good---and I want Tony to come back for more hamburgers someday.

 

[DumpTruck]

Hold the mustard, please.

Whoa,

Hold on, I quess I didn't do a good job describing what I'm after....

I not looking to sound just like Tony Rice - thats just absurd for many reasons. I'm looking to get closer to qualilty, tone and texture of his recordings.

As I wrote in the begining, I could have Tony himself in my house and not be able to capture the sound - meaning the real or natural sound of the guitar.

I've heard Tony play a few riffs on a cheapo ply top Washburn guitar he was autographing and when he handed it back to the kid, the kid just kept looking at the guitar like he couldin't believe that sound just came out of it......so yeah the players got a lot to with it. How do do good job recording that player and guitar of his choice?

So, let's say Tony really digs my BBQ'd hambergurs and is over on a Sunday afternoon. When he finishes his last burger, I say, "Hey Tony, how about laying down a couple of tracks on this demo CD I'm working on so I can get some gigs at the local coffee shops?" And Tony says, "Love to. Let me go get 58957 out of my Crown Vic and I'll be right back."

Ok, I've got a chair, the mics I mentioned in the first post, my Tascam interface, Garage Band and a shit eating grin I can't wipe of my face. Now what do I do? Because when I've recorded myself or others, the guitar recorded never sounds as good as the guitar played live. Thin, airy and brittle with too much pick noise not deep and rich and right up front in the mix. I gotta get these coffee shop gigs, so it's gotta sound good---and I want Tony to come back for more hamburgers someday.

 

[Daisy]

As I wrote in the begining, I could have Tony himself in my house and not be able to capture the sound - meaning the real or natural sound of the guitar.

Actually, I think this is where you're the most off with your thinking.

One of the first major hurdles that you'll need to get over here is the idea that sound quality and the source are two distinct things. It's really easy to mistake a poor-sounding source, along with poor technique ... for bad recording quality. Add in poor accoustics, and it's even made worse.

The reality is that if you were to track Tony in your place ... with your stuff ... barbeque sauce dripping off your chin and the smell of burgers grilling ... You would probably listen back to your tracks and be like that kid you were talking about. After doing a few double-takes, you'd turn around and look at Tony and his guitar, as well as your mics, and wonder what the heck happened.

Would it sound as good as his records? No, but you would still be sitting there kind of dumb-founded as to how his tracks sound so good next to yours. And I'm talking about the sound quality as well -- it would sound a lot more like it was tracked in a studio, and you'd be miffed as to how and why. Assuming Tony had an accurate set of headphones on, don't you think that if what he heard sounded thin and brittle, with too much picking noise ... knowing that he's a professional, don't you think he'd adjust his picking style in order to de-emphasize that aspect? I'd be really surprized if he didn't -- really good players listen for that stuff and they adjust their technique accordingly. That's why they're professionals.

Now, to get a more professional quality sound on your end... based on what you've been experiencing ... the key is going to be in the room accoustics. And the reason I say this is because at the 12th fret, you're not getting an accurate or natural picture of the guitar. At the same time, you mentioned that when you back the mic off a ways, the sound thins out. In a more ideal accoustic environment, you should be able to back the mic up by at least six feet. If you can't do that without the picture going all to hell, then there's your problem. Your lack of ideal accoustics have painted you in to a corner and essentially limited your options to various shades of close-mic'ing. And to be perfectly honest with you, it is exceptionally rare that any small area of the guitar is going to produce anything akin to a "natural" sound. That's not how we hear guitars -- if Tony was at your Barbeque, and decided to pull out his guitar after downing a chicken wing ... would you press your ear right up on the 12th fret as you listened to him play?

.

 

[MCI2424]

Actually, I think this is where you're the most off with your thinking.

One of the first major hurdles that you'll need to get over here is the idea that sound quality and the source are two distinct things. It's really easy to mistake a poor-sounding source, along with poor technique ... for bad recording quality. Add in poor accoustics, and it's even made worse.

The reality is that if you were to track Tony in your place ... with your stuff ... barbeque sauce dripping off your chin and the smell of burgers grilling ... You would probably listen back to your tracks and be like that kid you were talking about. After doing a few double-takes, you'd turn around and look at Tony and his guitar, as well as your mics, and wonder what the heck happened.

Would it sound as good as his records? No, but you would still be sitting there kind of dumb-founded as to how his tracks sound so good next to yours. And I'm talking about the sound quality as well -- it would sound a lot more like it was tracked in a studio, and you'd be miffed as to how and why. Assuming Tony had an accurate set of headphones on, don't you think that if what he heard sounded thin and brittle, with too much picking noise ... knowing that he's a professional, don't you think he'd adjust his picking style in order to de-emphasize that aspect? I'd be really surprized if he didn't -- really good players listen for that stuff and they adjust their technique accordingly. That's why they're professionals.

Now, to get a more professional quality sound on your end... based on what you've been experiencing ... the key is going to be in the room accoustics. And the reason I say this is because at the 12th fret, you're not getting an accurate or natural picture of the guitar. At the same time, you mentioned that when you back the mic off a ways, the sound thins out. In a more ideal accoustic environment, you should be able to back the mic up by at least six feet. If you can't do that without the picture going all to hell, then there's your problem. Your lack of ideal accoustics have painted you in to a corner and essentially limited your options to various shades of close-mic'ing. And to be perfectly honest with you, it is exceptionally rare that any small area of the guitar is going to produce anything akin to a "natural" sound. That's not how we hear guitars -- if Tony was at your Barbeque, and decided to pull out his guitar after downing a chicken wing ... would you press your ear right up on the 12th fret as you listened to him play?

.

So, I guess I want to know what is the best barbaque sauce for under $5?

 

[DumpTruck]

MCI2424,

For cookin and grillin, you can't beat "Bone Suckin' Sauce" from Ford Foods Raliegh, NC

For dipping try Tony Roma's Original

I'm done with this forum......Some of you have been polite and have given some great suggestions - Thank You.

Others who have never met me or heard me play or listened to some decent stuff I recorded have insulted my so called lack of talent behind the board and playing guitar and pretty much called me a wanna be (insert artist name here) clone with no self esteem ---- just becuase I'm trying to do a better job recording acoustis guitars and I don't how to do it.

The rest of have refused to give a straight answer or offer any usefull advice. Instead you keep describing some unreachable summit of recording and enchanted gear, studio rooms with perfect acoustics and magical mixing fingers and ears. Bullshit.

If you don't know the answer say so or don't even post. If you know the answer and you would rather ridcule than share - your just an asshole and why bother wasting everybody's time on a thread/post web site designed to help people make better home recordings?

It's not just the tread I've started. It's in replies all over the site. You know what folks? You will always be better than somebody and someone will always do it better than you. Once upon a time you couldn't do it, remember?

If you have knoweldge share without being a jerk; so some 15 year old with a heart full of ideas and dreams, fretting fingers covered in blood blisters playing a clunker guitar into a beat up 4-track can come to a place like this and ask some questions and learn some cool things in the proccess without being made fun of by some asshole who doesn't have the balls to say the nasty, mean, and hatefull things they write in emails, blogs, and postings to a persons face.

 

[RAMI]

MCI2424,

For cookin and grillin, you can't beat "Bone Suckin' Sauce" from Ford Foods Raliegh, NC

For dipping try Tony Roma's Original

I'm done with this forum......Some of you have been polite and have given some great suggestions - Thank You.

Others who have never met me or heard me play or listened to some decent stuff I recorded have insulted my so called lack of talent behind the board and playing guitar and pretty much called me a wanna be (insert artist name here) clone with no self esteem ---- just becuase I'm trying to do a better job recording acoustis guitars and I don't how to do it.

The rest of have refused to give a straight answer or offer any usefull advice. Instead you keep describing some unreachable summit of recording and enchanted gear, studio rooms with perfect acoustics and magical mixing fingers and ears. Bullshit.

If you don't know the answer say so or don't even post. If you know the answer and you would rather ridcule than share - your just an asshole and why bother wasting everybody's time on a thread/post web site designed to help people make better home recordings?

It's not just the tread I've started. It's in replies all over the site. You know what folks? You will always be better than somebody and someone will always do it better than you. Once upon a time you couldn't do it, remember?

If you have knoweldge share without being a jerk; so some 15 year old with a heart full of ideas and dreams, fretting fingers covered in blood blisters playing a clunker guitar into a beat up 4-track can come to a place like this and ask some questions and learn some cool things in the proccess without being made fun of by some asshole who doesn't have the balls to say the nasty, mean, and hatefull things they write in emails, blogs, and postings to a persons face.

You're a pathetic little baby.(we need a middle finger icon).

Just for the record, this insecure waste of flesh is reffering to me when he says some people said he had no talent, because of my first post in this thread. Anyone that reads the post will see that I was trying to say that the "talent" has a lot to do with someone's sound....as in, a lot of one's "sound" is in the way they pick and the way they touch the strings. I never heard this whiner play, why would I insult him??? Loser.

Then, the idiot gave me negative rep saying he's "insulted" after whining about it in his response. I responded with positive rep and a response, which must have drove him nuts because, since then, he's been stalking me, leaving me messages on my profile page. And HE'S complaining about the site??? Hello?

Good riddance, Nancy.

(though I know you'll be back, like everyone else that claims they've "had it")

 

[Rokket]

You're a pathetic little baby.(we need a middle finger icon).

Just for the record, this insecure waste of flesh is reffering to me when he says some people said he had no talent, because of my first post in this thread. Anyone that reads the post will see that I was trying to say that the "talent" has a lot to do with someone's sound....as in, a lot of one's "sound" is in the way they pick and the way they touch the strings. I never heard this whiner play, why would I insult him??? Loser.

Then, the idiot gave me negative rep saying he's "insulted" after whining about it in his response. I responded with positive rep and a response, which must have drove him nuts because, since then, he's been stalking me, leaving me messages on my profile page. And HE'S complaining about the site??? Hello?

Good riddance, Nancy.

(though I know you'll be back, like everyone else that claims they've "had it")

I think the question was answered. Shit, OK... since I know he'll be back, I hope he reads this.


Room acoustics have a SHITLOAD to do with sound. How do you achieve that magical tracking room? We have a studio forum on here so you can go in there and read and figure out how to hang rock wool and bass traps and foam to catch the high freq's. How dead do you want the room for tracking acoustic instruments? How about vocals? The answers are all there.

Tracking: you need to use good preamps and mics made for instruments (like the SM57 and sometimes the 58), and there are others out there. For that we have a mic forum. A little caveat about that place: it can be brutal in there. Develope a thicker skin and read before you post.


Talent: no one said that you don't have talent. Believe me, since your rant, I re-read every post in this thread. What was stated is that talent has a lot to do with capturing a good recording, especially with acoustics. With an electric guitar, it's all about mic placement on an amp that is stationary. An acoustic tends to move with the player, and if he moves too much, then it renders close mic techniques useless. Again, look at the room because you are going to need a good omni condensor and a good room to capture the true sound you are looking for.

Your questions were answered, you just didn't take the time to really read what was written.

Get at thicker skin. It won't do you any good to go off half-cocked here or on any internet bbs.

 

[RAMI]

Ok...so maybe I went a little overboard with the whole "waste of flesh" thing......But I meant all the rest.

 

[Elton Bear]

A bit late, but I think what he wanted was this;

http://www.magicalpluginsforfree.com/tony-rice_guitar.html

 

[Rokket]

A bit late, but I think what he wanted was this;

http://www.magicalpluginsforfree.com/tony-rice_guitar.html

... I actually tried to click on that link....


Boy am I an ass....

 

[Daisy]

If you have knoweldge share without being a jerk; so some 15 year old girl with a heart full of ideas and dreams ...

That would explain a lot.

 

[.guitar]

The guitar and playing will most definitely have the biggest impact, then the room, then the gear, blah blah blah...

If your guitar sounds similar then you should be able to get pretty close...

What song do you want to 'sound like'? I've never listened to any Tony Rice before, but maybe I can record an example...

I struggled for a long time trying to get the sound that I hear while playing...over-the-shoulder technique, etc...to no avail. What I do now, though, is almost always record the acoustic in stereo with a pair of omni mics. Even when there is a lot of other instruments, you can still fit the guitar in there if it's in stereo...and it sounds just like it did in the room.

One mic just doesn't seem to cut it for acoustic in my opinion...

 

[tkingen]

My favorite Tony Rice recording is the Church Street Blues album. It's so intimate you can hear him breathing during the solo passages.

Something that always strikes me about Tony's playing is how delicately his right hand works the strings. A lot of inexperienced players use too much force with their right hand. The microphone has no choice but to pick up up that harsh, sharp transient and resulting tone. It's like listening to someone talking too loud. Once you can achieve beautiful tone without yelling you can then start applying that skill to a louder approach.

Most of us will never reach the mastery of Tony Rice but we can still learn the philosophy of good tone coming from our hands. It's a noble and interesting goal to work on. It'll help one to enjoy their mics and preamps that much more.

 

[omtayslick]

That would explain a lot.

Yes. I believe it does.

 

[D28Flatpickr]

Hey Dumptruck,

if your still around ive got some info 4 u
ive been playing bluegrass guitar and recording my band and local groups for a while. there is a difference in recording a string band crowded aroung one mike live and solo guitar or duets

recording bluegrass and folk guitar can be tricky definitely listen to Church Street Blues lp. youll hear pick noise all over that album - and thats with the flatpick master playing right hand control and all. so dont be ocd about pick noise. im gonna bet u r using a thick tortoise shell pick because everybody at the summer bluegrass festivals says that what any respectable flatpicker uses to get good tone to reduce pick noise ---- not really. clarence white used thick picks in the 60s and everybody wanted to play like clarence so eveyrboby got thick picks and put rattle snake rattles inside their martins but thats another story
your thick pick is your picknoise problem. you got the pick then you got a nail file and shaped and beveled the pick so it would move faster. now the part people forget - youve got to bufff out all those scratches the nail file made. cant hear it when you play but jumps right tru the monitors every one of those scratches is scraping across the strings. also try thinner picks doc watson uses thin picks
tony has been recorded these days with sanken 31s and 32s ($1k each) and with neumann km54s ($4k each) along with most other flatpickers. if you can't spend big bucks for a pair of mikes try sure sm81s ($350 each). they are good for guitar recording on a budget and u r not happy with the rodes you have. your mikes are way down the list for improvements

place on mike where to body meets the neck 14th fret on a martin hd-28 and closer to the upper bout than to the fret board and another mike over the right shoulder of the player and remember the 3 to 1 rule! be carefull of the soundhole martins tend to be boomier than other guitars especially D-28s D-35s and D-45s and proximity effect is big factor with these guitars

your room is big problem too. you probably cant move or remodel so research some room treatments. bluegrass likes unfinished wood and soft edges. be creative and figure out way to make decretive and functional inexpensive panels with 3/8 birch veneer plywood, rigid insulation fiberglass or mineral wool not the blue and pink styrofoam stuff and acoustic fabric. trap sound with the soft sides and reflect sounds with birch sides.

this is the order you need to do things
polish your picks
improve you recording room sound
use different mike placements
you have a mac so think about getting logic instead of garage band garage band sounds harsh to my ears compared to other software
upgrade preamps
upgrade mikes

maybe ill see you around the bluegrass festival parking lots and pickin parties ill look for the guy picking a martin ha ha ha ha have fun