Why analogue and not digital?

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...do some 'good' for one who is still on that proverbial 'fence'...
Let me take a shot on this one:
"Get yourself an analog recorder or two while there are still some out there up for grab. It's not gonna' last."
You'll decide later.
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now, this thread has become somewhat "informative" :p :D

p.s., sorry, but I've got nothing to contribute to the "balance" of it.

/respects
 
"Get yourself an analog recorder or two while there are still some out there up for grab. It's not gonna' last."

Man, that's true. Analog recorders, on eBay, have been increasing in ending prices, steadily and most dramatically. When I thought I'd seen it all, a few days back, a nice condition TASCAM 48-OB ended at close to 2000 buckaroos! Not new or old new stock mind you. Woweee!:eek::D;)

I still say if 'they' decide to start producing those machines again, that there would be interest and many would just put 'em on financing terms, knowing full well that those things will last damn well an entire lifetime, especially with renewed parts support. The initial investment may hurt but over the long term, it'd be a bargain, especially that, in today's throw away technology, one may end up spending a similar amount in junk anyway.

The 2nd part of the 'it's not gonna last' is the realization that a good chunk of those nice machines will get thrashed in transit, thus limiting the rest of the now smaller lot and prices are gonna go even higher and even more for the few 'mint' examples. Once there is not enough to go around, TASCAM would no longer compete with their own and probably should start producing again. ;)

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Now msh and others can read and quote as many "experts" as they like but until they put up samples of genuine "real world" musical material their "contributions" will retain the appearance of being a lot of ego stroked hot air being propelled by questionable motives.

ausrock, it's working the other way around. It starts with an observation made by some/many/few/whatever:

- Digital doesn't sound as good as analog.

From there, a hypothesis is needed to explain why. That's the wado/OP post, modified by wado's first post.

Once we have a hypothesis, then we can evaluate it. Here are a few that have been discussed:

- quantization distortion. This is a function of bit depth, signal complexity, and noise. This also works into dynamic range.

- filter behavior. A digital sample HAS to be bandwidth limited (at least if we accept the need for PCM for processing). How does that filter work, and what does it do to the audible band?

- ultrasonic frequencies--are they audible, and at what level?

The last two questions have to do with sample rate. While we are considering sample rate, we can also consider the effect of sample accuracy vs. sample rate.

Those are physical concerns that have nothing to do with any specific implementation. This is an important distinction, because as we enter into the real world, converter quality has a large effect on whether the theoretical performance of the system is reached.

There was a side discussion on DSP, but that is not essential because one can record digitally with no processing, for example to something like an HD24 and mix entirely analog, and there are a number of studios that do operate that way.

The value of test signals is that it helps identify areas of concern which can be the subject of a real-world test. The samples I have posted thus far aren't the experiment, they are the hypothesis. The real world samples are coming . . . but I intend to generate real world signals that will be intended for objective observation; not "which one sounds better", but "can any distortion be heard or measured".

I wouldn't mind the subjective listening approach, but in the threads I've seen it rarely results in progress. Besides, as others have noted this isn't a tape vs. digital comparison, it's a strict evaluation of digital distortions. Ideally we would evaluate a live but 100% repeatable source through an analog input chain against the A/D/A, but I can't share that on internet . . .
 
I still say if 'they' decide to start producing those machines again, that there would be interest and many would just put 'em on financing terms, knowing full well that those things will last damn well an entire lifetime, especially with renewed parts support. The initial investment may hurt but over the long term, it'd be a bargain, especially that, in today's throw away technology, one may end up spending a similar amount in junk anyway.

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I can't agree more. Over this past weekend my father and I disassembeld the motor's on my Series 70 4 track on 1/2" and replaced the bearings. While it was in "service mode" we cleaned it from top to bottom, oiled it, replaced the fixed motors and finally demaged the heads.
It is a very low hour machine but it is still amazing how a little TLC can bring a 30+ year old machine back to life. It runs like a clock now.

We did a little tracking the other night and I was very giddy with the results.

Thanks to all for this post. Alot is over my head but what I understand is very informative.

Cheers.
 
A guy who dezignz plugz would expectedly have certain opinionz about digitalz superioritiez.:eek:;)

For the record, the only digital plug I've ever released is a MIDI multiplexer VSTi that is designed to drive a real, actual, physical, analog pipe organ . . . :)
 
I know what you guys mean. I sold my Teac 80-8, which I still think sounded better than my 1" deck does. The thing had hardly any use and sounded fantastic. I almost never even used noise reduction. When I sold it, UPS true to their nature, destroyed it and refused to pay on the insurance. It's not that I used it that much, but a perfectly working recording device that would outlive any other piece of equipment I have is now in a land fill because UPS sucks.

BTW, thanks for posting those examples. I'm in the middle of several jobs so I can't listen to them or post my own for a while but I'll get on them when I get a chance.
 
...TASCAM would no longer compete with their own and probably should start producing again.-

Should? heh heh. :)
I don't think they would. :( There's no reason for "them" to start producing again. The situation has changed radically (and it did not happen naturally, btw). It's no longer about producing a Through-The-Ear-Mind-Shocking Great Recording. It's all about competing over presentation and instant mass distribution throughout the strategically iPodized and Cellularized population.

The remaining great analog recorders still exist out there and will exist for some time (maybe pretty long time), however over the time they will be transferred from the owners who don't value them and/or don't want them to the owners who value them and want them. Of course, owners may change their mind one way or the other about their possession(s), but I'd guess, over the time the situation going toward when most remaining great analog recorders will be owned by people who want and walue them and then it will be very hard to find one and it's not gonna be cheap.
And yes, they get destroyed and trashed and part(ed) out etc....
 
And yes, they get destroyed and trashed and part(ed) out etc....

I'm pretty sure Reel Person will eventually purchase them all :D

That is the sad irony of this debate . . . doesn't matter how good digital can be made to sound, it'll end up as a heavily compressed, rights-managed file on an iPod :(
 
I was allowing for the presumption that analog always sounds good ;)

..it seems it ultimately really doesn't matter, one way or another, 'cause it'll end up on ipod anyway..:eek::D ;)

...one can just hope we get a high resolution digital, in the future and enjoy our compositions in all their glory.. but for now, it seems listening off of the master is the only way to go... [a lonely place to be..:o].:D;)

Now, where is my damn cutting lathe?!:eek::eek::D:D

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Nah, that was the best part, when the original author stepped in and posted.

It's truly great, informative, etc., and how often does that really happen?!?:eek:;)

Ditto! And I'm going to have to copy/paste to file, read it, again, THEN try understanding half of it!
 
I look at iPod as just one format to be concerned with. I still produce the best product I possibly can with a view to how it will sound on the best sound systems. Back in the day small radios and Walkman style cassette players vastly outnumbered audiophile systems, but we still mixed for the best, not the worst. Trends change almost overnight in our society. If/when the masses rediscover hi-fi sometime down the road my music will be ready.

:)
 
Oh, yeah, I'm right with you on this one...

On occasion people ask and I recall one such question some years back, on this board, why is it that people track to such high resolution formats [the person asked about 2" machines, in that particular thread, if I recall correct], when it all ended up on slow speed cassettes, vinyl, CD etc...... The answer was pretty obvious that consumer music mediums would continually change, for the better [it was thought] and that high resolution masters [tape in this instance] was the only way to be continually ahead of what was happening in the marketplace [to give consumers a better and better sonic experience, as tech improved, to fully realize the original productions].

Ain't it amazing, that some of the better stuff recorded in the 50's, for instance, has never been heard in its original glory, as the technology [in 2008] still can't capture what's on those master tapes. It was getting there, especially with the better systems, with the open reel 4 tracks, vinyl [and even cassette] but that soon went to CD [coupled with horrific digital re-mastering] and then the compression of mini-disc, MP3 .... all down the toilet... Why didn't SACD take over from CD? It would have been the superior choice.

Tape, from a storage medium perspective and while it also has limitations and caveats attached, is really the only future proof tech around.

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Always an interesting discussion.

I'd like to see a link to some of the "scientific" studies he mention's about humans responding negatively to digital.

He even said that about Class AB amps? I'm interested in seeing the studies.

I generally think it's probably a bunch of foo foo, but I'm open to hearing more about it. I've seen several thread's on guitar forum's saying that people didn't feel right when using digital modeling guitar amps.

I've noticed the same thing, but think it may just be that they are fatiguing to listen to and they don't respond to the fingers like we are used to.

Other people have taken it a step further and said they have that problem when listening to CD's. Where does it end though? Can't watch digital broadcasts, etc...
 

That is a good study, but did anybody else note the custom-designed speaker and amp system, and all the B&K gear? If we are to record and reproduce ultrasound with any kind of accuracy, a massive upgrade to analog front-end and playback gear is required.

Well, I'm using aluminum dome tweeters good to 25kHz, anyway :o And hey, if everybody's going to move towards natural recordings with measurement-style mics, I am down with that!

As for the Class AB test, haven't seen that but I've thought about it. That's not a digital issue anyway ;) but it would almost have to be a custom bit of gear designed for the test. Since AB is a A below a certain level, you'd have to try and figure out if the subjects could tell the difference above and below that point, while normalizing volume. Maybe you could build an amp with a variable bias control or something.
 
So are we talking about ultrasonics now?

It all seems to depend on where you're coming from.

*CD gets trashed because it can "only" reproduce up to 20khz.

*BUT Daniel is happy with his Portastudio even tho on his own admission it cant even match CD's 20khz...

Please, somebody help me understand...

I sometimes think that if the attributes were reversed and it was CD's that had hiss, wow and flutter, dropout, etc etc and analog tape had none, certain of us would magically develop an intolerance for the slightest bit of hiss, wow and flutter, dropout etc etc etc.

As they say, love is blind, or blind to it in the object of love.

Cheers Tim
 
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