Absorber const/placement/faced or unfaced

[foggie]

EDIT - Absorber const/placement/faced or unfaced

EDIT - Sorry, I had the two year old climbing on me and the five yr old asking me fifty questions when I was trying to post this initially AND I figured out how to link the images etc..

Thanks Ethan for your response. I have read most of the info from your sites and has been EXTREMELY informative - Thank you Again, I just need some clarification.
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In reading about making absorbers I have a few questions. I have a pretty small area that I want to tune up (13x12x7.5’). The area is used as a drum room and will be adding daw setup to record as well. Pretty reflective room (wood paneling walls, sheetrock ceiling, concrete floor.

Questions:

- I know 4” is ideal but should 2” 705 be used in all the corners as opposed to 703? I can get them locally for $15/ea and $10/ea respectively with shipping $10 for a box of six

- Should the corners be floor to ceiling “frames” (e.g. 7’x2’) or can 4’x2’ frames be used centered in the corner?

-What frame/construction method would be recommended for the corners, walls and ceiling (see trap pics) ? Consider the small space.

-Should faced be used, if so where (corners, walls, ceiling) and what direction?

-Would removing the closet be a benefit acoustically (obviously it would provide more space) see room layout pics

trap 1

trap2

trap3

layout 1

layout 2

layout 3

layout 4

5MB exe that is a self contained 3d model of the room. Download it and double click it to run (doesn't install anything)
http://cid-57bc9f50beb41656.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Studio%20CAD%20layout.exe

 

[Ethan Winer]

Two inches is not thick enough for corner traps. If you can't get 703 or 705 four inches thick, stack two pieces of two inch together. In that case peel the facing off one of the pieces so there's facing on only one side - the side toward the room.

Generally, FRK is best for corners, and non-FRK for everywhere else.

--Ethan

 

[foggie]

Any thoughts as to the removal of the closet?

Every room has a "sweet" spot and is why my kit is in the current location - because there is a significant difference if I move the kit even 1ft forward for example.

It's not a bad thing where it's located, but removing the closet (easy to tear down) would provide more space and would free up that portion of the room for the DAW and trapping/treatment.

I'm not sure removing it would help acoustically or if its actually providing "good" acoustical properties (since it changes the shape).

Just looking for thoughts

 

[foggie]

Can someone let me know if the pics are showing up?

Thoughts on the closet? Anyone?

One other question - There is no door currently installed and curious if adding one would be of any benefit? (I'm not concerned about soundproofing/leakage, just acoustical)

 

[BillyBo]

most of what you're asking is out of my scope of knowledge, but you definitely want to use "trap 1" as you build your traps and mount them with the air gap facing the wall.

are you using an old kitchen? what's with all the built-in cabinetry? i'm wondering if someone who responds will suggest putting the mixing position against the skinnier walls (far right in "layout 1"), but the closet and desk/cabinets may hinder that too. again, out of my scope, but what i've read many many places on here is that you want to mix parallel to the longest walls, not perpendicular.

 

[BillyBo]

- Should the corners be floor to ceiling “frames” (e.g. 7’x2’) or can 4’x2’ frames be used centered in the corner?

you'll want to cover as much of the corners as you can because of the amount of reflection you say is occurring. but, i'm one to say that something is better than nothing, so if you can only frame a 4'x2' in the corners do that. i would guess floor-to-ceiling would be best if you can do it (aka afford it).

 

[foggie]

most of what you're asking is out of my scope of knowledge, but you definitely want to use "trap 1" as you build your traps and mount them with the air gap facing the wall.

are you using an old kitchen? what's with all the built-in cabinetry? i'm wondering if someone who responds will suggest putting the mixing position against the skinnier walls (far right in "layout 1"), but the closet and desk/cabinets may hinder that too. again, out of my scope, but what i've read many many places on here is that you want to mix parallel to the longest walls, not perpendicular.

Funny - actually it was sort of a hobby shop at one time thus the built in's etc. I have thought about ripping everything out (cabinets and closet) but they are nice to have for obvious reasons - doesn't really matter to me though

The mix position is still being thought out - thanks for the advice.

 

[foggie]

you'll want to cover as much of the corners as you can because of the amount of reflection you say is occurring. but, i'm one to say that something is better than nothing, so if you can only frame a 4'x2' in the corners do that. i would guess floor-to-ceiling would be best if you can do it (aka afford it).

I figured as much. I ordered all the panels today. For traps I will make them 4inches thick (two 2incher's) floor to ceiling and will use FRK on the side facing the room using trap3 style (objections?). The absorbers will be 4'x2' 2inch thick via trap1 style.

This will be an interesting acoustic 101 experiment so to speak

 

[gullfo]

i guess its a matter of priorities. if you want good acoustics in the space, then make the room good acoustically - reconfigure it, build up the treatments as necessary to get a good mix position and good live acoustics, OR, keep it as a shop and live with the results as-is with some basic treatment here and there to try to balance it. you'll need at least 100mm (4") 3pcf rigid insulation in the corners and these can be vertical wall, wall floor, wall ceiling corners although the peak tricorners and each vertical corner is the best place to start.

 

[foggie]

i guess its a matter of priorities. if you want good acoustics in the space, then make the room good acoustically - reconfigure it, build up the treatments as necessary to get a good mix position and good live acoustics, OR, keep it as a shop and live with the results as-is with some basic treatment here and there to try to balance it. you'll need at least 100mm (4") 3pcf rigid insulation in the corners and these can be vertical wall, wall floor, wall ceiling corners although the peak tricorners and each vertical corner is the best place to start.

" reconfigure it, build up the treatments as necessary to get a good mix position and good live acoustics" => Making the room good acoustically is what I want, thats why I'm posting the question Keeping it as a shop isn't what I'm after (that's the way it was from previous owner) as I only use it as a music studio.

Sooooo then I am assuming the correct way to "reconfigure" it acoustically is to tear everything up and treat it? I honestly don't know, again that is why I'm posting but haven't received much response to that question I'm unsure if tearing everything up is going to make a significant difference - better or worse?

Anyway I already have a few cases of 703 (including some faced for traps). I guess what I can do, like you said, is treat it as is (like my layout pics), see how the results are and then if need be, tear the stuff in question down and add more treatment.

There is also the question regarding the door (lack of) as well and whether or not that is some that should be added or not?

Thanks for any assistance.

 

[gullfo]

like i said - priorities - if the hobby shop is important, then treat as you can to get the best possible balance. if the space needs to be the best it can be for acoustic reasons, then i think you need to tear out the cabinets etc to get the space to be as large as possible, then treat to get the right level (for your needs) of bass absorption and mid-high frequency controls - reverberation time, live space vs dead space etc. maybe consider reversible or arrangeable treatments for walls, gobos, etc.

on the mix side, get things symmetrical and balanced. for the live side, i'd start with the broadband bass treatments and add absorption as needed to get the room balanced. consider a drum riser in the corner.

here's some ideas on layout:

 

[foggie]

like i said - priorities - if the hobby shop is important, then treat as you can to get the best possible balance. if the space needs to be the best it can be for acoustic reasons, then i think you need to tear out the cabinets etc to get the space to be as large as possible, then treat to get the right level (for your needs) of bass absorption and mid-high frequency controls - reverberation time, live space vs dead space etc. maybe consider reversible or arrangeable treatments for walls, gobos, etc.

on the mix side, get things symmetrical and balanced. for the live side, i'd start with the broadband bass treatments and add absorption as needed to get the room balanced. consider a drum riser in the corner.

here's some ideas on layout:

Hey thanks for the ideas. I didn't picture it that way, but certainly doable This really helps me visualize the space much better. Again, thanks.

I got one bass trap done today (floor to ceiling, 4" thick). I'll continue work on the rest and start planning next steps for the space.

Its too bad the space isn't bigger (I'm sure that's typical for most) but the ceiling is really low, 7'-ish and putting clouds up really eats up even more. Oh well Work with what I have. Also, since this room was an addition, the dividing wall is block so I can't make it bigger even if I wanted to. I think I will also take all the wood paneling off the walls (I'm pretty certain there is sheetrock underneath) and paint -I'll see.

It is important that the space is "inviting" and comfortable so to speak, especially for music/creativity. At least I thinks so. I have only been in this place for a year and haven't had much time to dedicate to this task.

You had mentioned a riser. Are you thinking for isolation => which means a special type of riser/construction. Care to elaborate?

Anyway, on to the next phase(s)

Thanks!

 

[gullfo]

drum riser - just make it out of an 1" of heavy carpet padding (or 2" 3pcf rigid insulation) on the floor, 3" of MDF, and topped with 1 layer of 29/32 plywood. glue and screw MDF together, screw on ply - so you can replace it over time. nice mass and won't act as a bass trap to kill your kick drum. plus will isolate from the floor...

 

[foggie]

Geeez were does the time go...

Update. Well I'm still working on this. I removed the closet, cabinets etc.. So I'm currently working on patching these areas up (sheetrock, paneling etc.)

I purchased my interface, some more mics AND another two cases of 703 which I will be making two more floor/ceiling traps (4" - for a total of 4) and a few more broadband's (seven total) this weekend. Just picking away at all of this when I can.

I have a question regarding the door or the lack of one. As I understand it, having an "opening" like this acts as sort of an absorber => sound goes out and doesn't come back (reflect) in? So would it be recommended that I install one and hang a broadband on it (if needed) or would it be wise to keep it open?

Obviously I can test this when everything is in place, but just looking for some input on what would facilitate the "best" sound from a engineering/acoustical/theoretical point of view so to speak.

Thanks!