Modeling Amps/Are Class A's really worth it?

[jonnyc]

People hear with their eyes. I think anyone thats says they hear a "difference tremedously"between an 003 or motu to a 1272(which in reality is a converted line amp) possibly may be working off image factor.. This is a very old debate here. Also remember when people do A/B comps. they typically do not compare correctly. They take an example from one recording and compare it another recording which in 99% of the examples were different artist, rooms, mic's,musicians, mix environments etc. All of which make a huge difference.

There is a huge difference. Where the difference really shows itself is when it comes to mix time. Since switching to good quality preamps I don't have to eq nearly as much as I ever did. For example, I don't even eq guitars anymore. When I used Joe Meeks, Presonus, 002's and pres of that general quality I was always eq'ing shit to make it work. Also, most of my bands are repeats and they have no idea about audio gear yet they always ask my why my stuff now sounds so much better than it did then.

 

[jmorris]

I disagree with the last statement "if you cant tell the difference change your job". That is just a bunch of crap. I have this argument before with people on the BBS. In fact, I posted samples of projects I have recorded where the only ''good" good" mic pre was a Telefunken V72a I bought from Vintage King. No one could tell me which track used the V72a preamp. NO ONE. So, if it cant be singled out in that type of test you tell me how there is SOOOOO. much difference between pre? Yes, there is a difference, but it is very subtle
There is a large amount of snobery with recording gear/people. You see Neve, API, Avalon and your brain goes..."oh, great sound" without even listening. Again, I do not argue that there is a difference between mic pres but to say "oh, I can clearly hear the difference right away" or " you need to change your job" I think is crazy.

 

[jonnyc]

I disagree with the last statement "if you cant tell the difference change your job". That is just a bunch of crap. I have this argument before with people on the BBS. In fact, I posted samples of projects I have recorded where the only ''good" good" mic pre was a Telefunken V72a I bought from Vintage King. No one could tell me which track used the V72a preamp. NO ONE. So, if it cant be singled out in that type of test you tell me how there is SOOOOO. much difference between pre? Yes, there is a difference, but it is very subtle
There is a large amount of snobery with recording gear/people. You see Neve, API, Avalon and your brain goes..."oh, great sound" without even listening. Again, I do not argue that there is a difference between mic pres but to say "oh, I can clearly hear the difference right away" or " you need to change your job" I think is crazy.

I'm sorry if you can't hear a difference right away. I did, clearly. Yeah it's more difficult to pick out pres when you're showing people mp3's and also when you're not giving them a full blown mix of one pre over the other. But when you're sitting in your own room with your own monitors you should be able to clearly hear a difference.

 

[jmorris]

They were not mp3 samples by the way, wave files. I'll be happy to send you or post 3 files, one with a V72a, one Mackie,the other Octopre. I'll let someone else on this BBS hold the answer. Lets see if you can tell me which one is V72a. You up for it? Play them through your monitors, you room.

 

[leddy]

They were not mp3 samples by the way, wave files. I'll be happy to send you or post 3 files, one with a V72a, one Mackie,the other Octopre. I'll let someone else on this BBS hold the answer. Lets see if you can tell me which one is V72a. You up for it? Play them through your monitors, you room.

I would like you to. I've been wanting a V72, so I'd like to give them a listen. What have you recorded with them? Got anything with cymbals?

 

[chessrock]

99.99% of the home recording morons out there have neither the equipment nor the ear to be able to discern a difference between a cheap mic pre and a higher-end one. Furthermore, that .01% minority that actually could reliably hear a difference on a consistant basis ... probably doesn't have the skill, equipment or recording environment to even take advantage of any of the benefits it might bring to the table.

And a preamp modeler ... is probably about the gayest idea I've ever heard.

.

 

[jonnyc]

99.99% of the home recording morons out there have neigher the equipment nor the ear to be able to discern a difference between a cheap mic pre and a higher-end one. Furthermore, that .01% minority that actually could reliably hear a difference on a consistant basis ... probably doesn't have the skill, equipment or recording environment to even take advantage of any of the benefits it might bring to the table.

And a preamp modeler ... is probably about the gayest idea I've ever heard.

.

So you're saying i should ditch my m610 and go back to using behri preamps and eqing the hell out of everything to get a decent sound? Yeah makes a lot of sense, I guess my mics just all the sudden starting working much better, wasn't the preamps at all. I'm starting to wonder about some of you guys.

 

[jonnyc]

They were not mp3 samples by the way, wave files. I'll be happy to send you or post 3 files, one with a V72a, one Mackie,the other Octopre. I'll let someone else on this BBS hold the answer. Lets see if you can tell me which one is V72a. You up for it? Play them through your monitors, you room.

Sure send me the files, but first, what are you recording, what mic are you using and is it in the context of a full mix of just one track? I never thought it was true until I invested in good pres but you can absolutely hear a difference between a song fully tracked through lets say ada8000 pres and true systems precision 8 pres. My mixes got better the day I upgraded, that's no lie and if it's all psychological then so be it cause it worked.

 

[chessrock]

So you're saying i should ditch my m610 and go back to using behri preamps and eqing the hell out of everything...

Not at all. I'm just saying that, statistically speaking, it's very unlikely that you are capable of taking advantage of the differences, or even able to hear the differences in the first place. Statistically, most people aren't very likely to get struck by lightning or to win the lottery either, but it certainly does happen.

Now if you truly did start out using Behringer pres in addition to "eq'ing the hell out of everything" ... then you might also be the type to stand out in the middle of a thunder storm barefoot with a long metal rod in your hand, so I suppose all bets may just be off in your case.

.

 

[jonnyc]

Not at all. I'm just saying that, statistically speaking, it's very unlikely that you are capable of taking advantage of the differences, or even able to hear the differences in the first place. Statistically, most people aren't very likely to get struck by lightning or to win the lottery either, but it certainly does happen.

Now if you truly did start out using Behringer pres in addition to "eq'ing the hell out of everything" ... then you might also be the type to stand out in the middle of a thunder storm barefoot with a long metal rod in your hand, so I suppose all bets may just be off in your case.

.

Well I must be in the catagory that can take advantage of a better preamp because it takes a noticeably shorter amount of time and way fewer plug ins to achieve what I would consider a pretty good mix. However when I was using behri's and 002r pres I was never happy with any of my recordings. I mean if you read some of my really old posts you'd always see me justifying using crap pres and how if you can't make those sound good, blah blah blah but then I took a chance and after tracking my first full band it was definately exciting. I truly did start in Behri pres, they were my first besides my 002r and I could never get guitars to sit right, bass was always noisey going di drums were lifeless so on. I'm sure learning new techniques has also helped but there's no way I'm going back to using behri pres. And yes I like to climb flagpoles in thunderstorms, so what.

 

[kojdogg]

In about 99.9% of the cases when someone wonders the same question you're posing ... it isn't the preamps that are holding them back, and in fact they tend to be extremely far down the list of things they should be focusing on, and that actually make a real difference.

99.99% of the home recording morons out there have neither the equipment nor the ear to be able to discern a difference between a cheap mic pre and a higher-end one. Furthermore, that .01% minority that actually could reliably hear a difference on a consistant basis ... probably doesn't have the skill, equipment or recording environment to even take advantage of any of the benefits it might bring to the table.

And a preamp modeler ... is probably about the gayest idea I've ever heard.

.

uh oh-- we are rapidly reaching 100% cluelessness in the home recording moron (i.e. morno) population

 

[jonnyc]

uh oh-- we are rapidly reaching 100% cluelessness in the home recording moron (i.e. morno) population

According to chess I can't hear the difference so if you'd be so kind as to paypal me back around 700 bucks so I can send this useless preamp back that'd be great.

 

[kojdogg]

According to chess I can't hear the difference so if you'd be so kind as to paypal me back around 700 bucks so I can send this useless preamp back that'd be great.

sorry, i can offer some suggestions as to what you might be able to do with it if it's useless as a preamp to you though.

 

[jmorris]

I would like you to. I've been wanting a V72, so I'd like to give them a listen. What have you recorded with them? Got anything with cymbals?

I have tons of stuff but I cant tell you what is recorded with them as that would taint the test would'nt it tricky fellow

 

[kojdogg]

ultimately though, i think there is definitely some merit to the spirit of what chessrock is saying if you filter out the jaded, world-weary condescension that ticks so many people off. if you make the s.a.t. analogy, who would you rather record-- an expert guitarist playing a squire bullet through a peavey rage, or a 14 year old guitar newbie playing stairway poorly on a high end rig?
i think part of what had gotten to me in the past is that his position implies that he is one of the 0.1% or 0.01% (i'm sure it will get to 0.001% and then eventually to 0.chessrock%) who "get it." he very well may be, but i think more people get it then he will acknowledge, and for those who don't, they definitely could with a little guidance and encouragement. many people's recordings aren't limited by their gear, but their skill and experience yes, but i see no harm in getting nicer gear. these days buying a $500 or a $1000 preamp and growing into it isn't all that uncommon. i think many people will start with more than they need and i think it's awesome for them when they get to the point where they really can use their gear to it's full potential.
it's not like buying a $200k ssl board or something while you loggin on here and asking what phantom power is.

 

[jonnyc]

ultimately though, i think there is definitely some merit to the spirit of what chessrock is saying if you filter out the jaded, world-weary condescension that ticks so many people off. if you make the s.a.t. analogy, who would you rather record-- an expert guitarist playing a squire bullet through a peavey rage, or a 14 year old guitar newbie playing stairway poorly on a high end rig?
i think part of what had gotten to me in the past is that his position implies that he is one of the 0.1% or 0.01% (i'm sure it will get to 0.001% and then eventually to 0.chessrock%) who "get it." he very well may be, but i think more people get it then he will acknowledge, and for those who don't, they definitely could with a little guidance and encouragement. many people's recordings aren't limited by their gear, but their skill and experience yes, but i see no harm in getting nicer gear. these days buying a $500 or a $1000 preamp and growing into it isn't all that uncommon. i think many people will start with more than they need and i think it's awesome for them when they get to the point where they really can use their gear to it's full potential.
it's not like buying a $200k ssl board or something while you loggin on here and asking what phantom power is.

You're the smartest person in the world.

 

[kojdogg]

You're the smartest person in the world.

i wouldn't say that, but i am a pretty good negotiator

 

[Blue Groove]

...

It's all about experience. I use Neve and Api all day long, with a great room, great converters, great mics, great monitors... if you set me in front of a great chain blindfolded, I could tell you that something is crap. It's a matter of "training"

My comment was to make people try harder. If you sit an average "audio" person in front of a great mix with one 002 pre they would say it sounds great. Massenberg would pick out something as weird, then track it down and fix it. I do this all day, you eventually can tell if something is wrong.

It's okay that nobody could pick out the V72...what AD, mic, comp, eq, etc were you using? Your chain is only as good as the weakest link.

 

[jmorris]

Sure send me the files, but first, what are you recording, what mic are you using and is it in the context of a full mix of just one track? I never thought it was true until I invested in good pres but you can absolutely hear a difference between a song fully tracked through lets say ada8000 pres and true systems precision 8 pres. My mixes got better the day I upgraded, that's no lie and if it's all psychological then so be it cause it worked.

No mix, it would have a be a signle raw track to be true. For example a vocal a guitar and like a kick drum.Now I already hear it comming, " well, I have to know what mic and/or it has to be the same instrument". No, untrue. If there is truely a "huge" difference as you/people say then it will be extremely clear the first 5 seconds you listen. I say there is a difference. But, there is not a "huge, knock me off my mixing chair slap in the face difference". I do agree it can make the overall mix better and maybe a bit easier to mix, ok. If you guys can REALLY tell the difference right off the bat bnetween a middle of the road pre and a class A high end pre this test will be very simple for you. What I will do is collect 3 samples. 1 sample will be the V72a mic pre,the other 2 will be Octopre's or something like that. I'll post the wave file on my site and give you the link.Give me a day to get out the disc and the tracks sheets so I know what is what.

 

[jmorris]

It's all about experience. I use Neve and Api all day long, with a great room, great converters, great mics, great monitors... if you set me in front of a great chain blindfolded, I could tell you that something is crap. It's a matter of "training"

My comment was to make people try harder. If you sit an average "audio" person in front of a great mix with one 002 pre they would say it sounds great. Massenberg would pick out something as weird, then track it down and fix it. I do this all day, you eventually can tell if something is wrong.

It's okay that nobody could pick out the V72...what AD, mic, comp, eq, etc were you using? Your chain is only as good as the weakest link.

Blue Groove. If you cant pickout the v72a preamp then it cannot be THAT much of a difference. It is a collective quality. Every bit of quality gear adds to the mix. If there is a night and day difference between moderate and class A pres then it would stick out like a sore thumb.