Modeling Amps/Are Class A's really worth it?

[pianoman1976]

Hello friends,

Can you really tell the difference if a Avalon Class A amp is used on vocals - let's say in comparison to the built in mic pre's on the Digidesign 003?

Considering current technology, couldn't Class A sound be modeled by software?

Thanks.

 

[RightOnMusic]

to answer your first question: yes.

preamps that come stock on consumer grade interfaces are not as good as class a pres. this is not to say that they are awful. i've seen the motu 828 mkII's preamps used on all sorts of stuff that you hear on tv/radio every day. however, when i decided to stop using those and buy a neve 1272, i heard the difference tremendously. all of the sudden, i could hear the FULL potential of what my mic was capable of capturing. should you go buy an avalon? eh, i'm not a huge fan, but there is definitely a huge difference between it and the 003's pres.

as for modeling.... i'll still rock my '65 Fender Bandmaster rather than the fender sound on a POD or GuitarRig or something.

 

[pianoman1976]

preamps that come stock on consumer grade interfaces are not as good as class a pres. this is not to say that they are awful. i've seen the motu 828 mkII's preamps used on all sorts of stuff that you hear on tv/radio every day.

Should the quality of the mic pre in a consumer grade interface be a determining factor when decided which one to buy? Is motu better than digi in this regard? What about others?

Is there an interface out there with high end mic pres?

Let say I'm using a Digi 003, but rent a class A amp for a session. Can I bypass the built in pres?

 

[RightOnMusic]

Should the quality of the mic pre in a consumer grade interface be a determining factor when decided which one to buy? Is motu better than digi in this regard? What about others?

digidesign uses focusrite preamps which have a good reputation. i've never really AB'd lots of interfaces, so i wouldn't really know what's better than what. digi's stuff is fairly clean from what i remember and i have no problem with the pres in motu's stuff.

Is there an interface out there with high end mic pres?

digi using focusrite is about the closest i've ever seen.

Let say I'm using a Digi 003, but rent a class A amp for a session. Can I bypass the built in pres?

absolutely. most interfaces will have line ins in addition to their mic pres.

 

[pohaku]

Should the quality of the mic pre in a consumer grade interface be a determining factor when decided which one to buy? Is motu better than digi in this regard? What about others?

Is there an interface out there with high end mic pres?

Let say I'm using a Digi 003, but rent a class A amp for a session. Can I bypass the built in pres?

If your only pres are the ones that come with the interface, and you expect to use them for some period of time, then absolutely the quality of the pres should be a, but not the only, determining factor. In that circumstance, the pres are probably more important than the conversion. However, there are other factors -- for example, if you really want a protools platform, that are going to limit you to certain brands.

I've not used the Digi 003 (only the 002 and 001) so I don't know if the pres were improved from prior models. The Digi pres I have used were OK (although we immediately replaced them with a Presonus Digimax LT which we thought sounded a bit better, YMMV) and I expect that the MOTU and RME stuff at the same price point is pretty comparable. At that price point, not a lot of the cost of the unit is going into the pres.

It is quite common to use an interface, like the Digi and then use the inserts or line ins for other pres. I have an Aardvark Q10 that gets used that way. The pres are OK, but I now have lots of other pres that are better, so I simply use the inserts and bypass the Aardvark pres. The Aardvark is now being replaced (anyone who wants to purchase used Q10 let me know), but I'm moving to separate pres and converters (largely because I have separate nice pres), rather than to another bundled product.

Ultimately you need to look at the entire feature set, both in terms of what you need currently and how you expect your recording needs to develop in the future. For example, if I expected that I was going to purchase outboard pres in the near future, the pres that come with the interface take on less importance and the conversion and software platform become more important. If you really want protools, that will limit your options as well -- I use Sonar currently so protools (and thus Digi) isn't important to me.

Personally, if I was looking for a bundled interface at the moment, I'd look closely at the RME products like the Fireface. From all appearances and testimonials, they seem to be well engineered products that pretty much perform as advertised.

 

[RightOnMusic]

Personally, if I was looking for a bundled interface at the moment, I'd look closely at the RME products like the Fireface. From all appearances and testimonials, they seem to be well engineered products that pretty much perform as advertised.

gonna have to agree here. my piano player uses one of these and it's a great piece of gear. RME ftw.

 

[bubbagump]

Not to be a dick, but do you know what Class A means? I just want to be sure as just because something has a Class A amp in it doesn't necessarily make it good. EMU makes a $129 interface now with Class A pres in it but they ain't the same as Neve.

Considering current technology, couldn't Class A sound be modeled by software?

Not likely. Class A refers to amplifier design and Class A amps tend to be a faster amp than say class A/B. You would be hard pressed to recreate a transient that was already boogered up earlier in the chain. Plus, the model would need to know a lot about the pres being used and how they behave to attempt to undo what was done earlier in the chain. It is like saying "can't I make a overdriven Mesa recording sound like a clean Fender Twin." In the realm of possibility perhaps someday... maybe (likely not as there are so many variables involved), so don't hold your breath.

 

[boingoman]

Not to be a dick, but do you know what Class A means? I just want to be sure as just because something has a Class A amp in it doesn't necessarily make it good. EMU makes a $129 interface now with Class A pres in it but they ain't the same as Neve.

Word up yo.

 

[Fishmed]

Considering current technology, couldn't Class A sound be modeled by software?

I agree with bubbagump.

A great mic pre will capture better detail then what an inferior pre cannot. There is no way to add the original clarity that was lost by the poor performance of a crappy mic pre.

Try to think of using PhotoShop (or some other photo editing software) to clean up a picture taken with a Kodak 110 camera to get it to the same quality as a picture taken with a Canon 10 Megapixel digital camera.

 

[jonnyc]

digidesign uses focusrite preamps which have a good reputation. i've never really AB'd lots of interfaces, so i wouldn't really know what's better than what. digi's stuff is fairly clean from what i remember and i have no problem with the pres in motu's stuff.



digi using focusrite is about the closest i've ever seen.



absolutely. most interfaces will have line ins in addition to their mic pres.

I hate to jump in and correct people but I got to on this one. The last piece of gear digi made that used focusrite pre's is the control 24. The 002 and 003 series use digi's own design now. There are certainly interfaces with better pres in them and this is coming from a 002r owner. Hell, from what I've heard with my own ears the Presonus Firestudio has better pres than my 002r. On the third answer you're partially right however you cannot bypass the pres on channels 1-4 on a 003 however inputs 5-8 are not preamped and can be used with any preamp with an analog output. Also you have the option of using different pres with the 003's digital options. Please get up to speed on info you're giving out to newbies.

 

[RightOnMusic]

thanks man, i had no idea they'd stopped using focusrite. and inputs 5-8 were what i was refering to.

 

[boingoman]

On the third answer you're partially right however you cannot bypass the pres on channels 1-4 on a 003 however inputs 5-8 are not preamped and can be used with any preamp with an analog output.

Inputs 5-8 are listed as having gain range of 0-50db. Seems like they have a preamp of some kind in there. If it has gain, it has an amp. Plugging into a line input doesn't skip preamplification. You are just going through their line pre instead of their mic pre.

 

[jonnyc]

Inputs 5-8 are listed as having gain range of 0-50db. Seems like they have a preamp of some kind in there. If it has gain, it has an amp. Plugging into a line input doesn't skip preamplification. You are just going through their line pre instead of their mic pre.

Ok, first off I've owned my rig for almost 4 years, second I've recorded a lot of songs and know what I'm talking about. On my 002r there are no gain knobs of any sort on inputs 5-8, there is no preamplification going on whatsoever. If you don't believe me go ask the guys at the duc. So no, I'm not going through the "line pre" as you call it. It's simply a line level input. Where did you find this listing?

 

[boingoman]

Ok, first off I've owned my rig for almost 4 years, second I've recorded a lot of songs and know what I'm talking about. On my 002r there are no gain knobs of any sort on inputs 5-8, there is no preamplification going on whatsoever. If you don't believe me go ask the guys at the duc. So no, I'm not going through the "line pre" as you call it. It's simply a line level input. Where did you find this listing?

It's in the specs of the 003, jonny.

How do adjust the level of your line level input?

Also realize that if you are running into any kind of balanced input, you are running through an op-amp or two, which most likely aren't even as good as the ones in the mic pre.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking. Maybe when you get to your 5th year you will drop some attitude.

 

[jmorris]

to answer your first question: yes.

preamps that come stock on consumer grade interfaces are not as good as class a pres. this is not to say that they are awful. i've seen the motu 828 mkII's preamps used on all sorts of stuff that you hear on tv/radio every day. however, when i decided to stop using those and buy a neve 1272, i heard the difference tremendously. all of the sudden, i could hear the FULL potential of what my mic was capable of capturing. should you go buy an avalon? eh, i'm not a huge fan, but there is definitely a huge difference between it and the 003's pres.

as for modeling.... i'll still rock my '65 Fender Bandmaster rather than the fender sound on a POD or GuitarRig or something.

People hear with their eyes. I think anyone thats says they hear a "difference tremedously"between an 003 or motu to a 1272(which in reality is a converted line amp) possibly may be working off image factor.. This is a very old debate here. Also remember when people do A/B comps. they typically do not compare correctly. They take an example from one recording and compare it another recording which in 99% of the examples were different artist, rooms, mic's,musicians, mix environments etc. All of which make a huge difference.

 

[leddy]

People hear with their eyes. I think anyone thats says they hear a "difference tremedously"between an 003 or motu to a 1272(which in reality is a converted line amp) possibly may be working off image factor.. This is a very old debate here. Also remember when people do A/B comps. they typically do not compare correctly. They take an example from one recording and compare it another recording which in 99% of the examples were different artist, rooms, mic's,musicians, mix environments etc. All of which make a huge difference.

Well...it's a fact that certain amplifier designs add harmonics that are not present in the original signal. So there are differences.

In general, I think it's safe to say that bad preamps add unpleasant distortion and/or excessive noise. Good preamps tend to not add distortion or noise, or add a type of distortion that is generally accepted as pleasing.

My "best" preamp is only a Sytek, but there is a clear difference between that and generic mixer preamps, or even a more expensive unit like my SP828.
Run a mic that needs a lot of gain like an RE20 or a ribbon through each of the units. There will be way more clarity, detail and less noise from the Sytek.

Of course, as most of us know, the qualities or character of the preamp doesn't mean shite if there is poor mic technique / selection, bad gain staging, bad room, bad playing, bad mixing, etc.. In that sense, I agree that many folks don't really hear the difference.

 

[xstatic]

As far as the Digidesign/Focusrite thing.... It is important to remember here that the Focusrite preamps used in the Control 24 were the cheap predecessor to the cheap platinum series line, not the Blue (ISA) or even red or green series preamps. In the professional end of the industry, the platinum series is not very highly regarded. Even the newer Blue series is not regarded as the old ISA stuff was.

 

[xstatic]

ooops......2x

 

[Blue Groove]

...

I own both items in the original post, and while I'm not a huge fan of the 737s pre, I can easily tell the difference.

As for the post for the "All class A pres aren't good...You can't compare a $100-$200 pre that has ICs and surfacemount to a pre that is discrete, and has every component balanced. Just "Class A" isn't enough, the components make up the whole. A TLO compared to an API 2520? Not even close.

The 003s pres are better than the 002s, still not up to par with Neve, API, Trident, John Hardy, Manley, etc...

If you have a good mic you'll love the sound of your high end pre. If you have a low quality "do not read cheap, some inexpensive mic do a great job" mic, you'll learn to hate the mic, but not the pre. Keep that in mind.

I've A/B'd lots of pres, in my studio. Same source, same mic, same levels, if you can't hear the difference, change your job or...
Practice, train your ears (this doesn't apply to hobbyists, although training your ears is a good idea)

 

[jonnyc]

It's in the specs of the 003, jonny.

How do adjust the level of your line level input?

Also realize that if you are running into any kind of balanced input, you are running through an op-amp or two, which most likely aren't even as good as the ones in the mic pre.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking. Maybe when you get to your 5th year you will drop some attitude.

How do I adjust the level of my line input? It only has -10 +4 switches, no other adjustment can happen. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove but you're not doing a real good job of it. I certainly wouldn't be running 1500 dollar preamps into my line inputs if they didn't sound as good as the bullshit pres on my 002. I only have attitude when people like you who don't even own the equipment try to get on and tell me how my stuff works. You got on here and tried correcting me, you didn't ask you just told me how it was with my own machine. I was trying to keep misinformation from spreading all over the place when people who aren't knowledgable about the gear they're talking about start saying stuff that's completely wrong. I was trying to also tell the guy that by no means does the 00 series have anywhere close to the best preamps on a consumer grade interface and they certainly aren't anything focusrite. I was actually talking my system down.

As far as the specs on the 003 go, they are a bit confusing but if you just take a look at the machine you'll see there are no gain knobs for inputs 5-8. No way to adjust any levels. It almost looks like the just took the di specs and copied them to the line specs which doesn't make a ton of sense.