Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[dkerwood]

I can't believe that this thread is still alive. And it's funny. Page 53 has the same arguments as page 5... and they've still gone nowhere.

To the people who say "I wouldn't have bought this $500 program anyway": If you were walking through your local computer store and saw your $500 program on super clearance for $9.99, would you buy it? I suspect you would. Maybe if you saw it on clearance for $50? $100? Regardless, there's certainly some price (other than free) that you'd be willing to pay for the program that you so arduously defend.

Therefore, you ARE in fact robbing the manufacturer of that 10 or 50 or 100 or whatever dollars that you'd be WILLING to pay for the program (try stealing a ten dollar item from the store and see how that goes over). True, they may not be offering it for that cheap, but you're not willing to wait and see. Furthermore, because you're using this state of the art stolen program, you're also depriving someone of the affordable (albeit less featured) program that you WOULD have bought (Cakewalk Guitar Tracks or the like).

Now, when people dig back into this thread and see my position earlier on this subject, I'd like to say that I still have no issue with my own pirated software, although I would certainly buy the software if it came down to what I was willing to pay for it. Hypocritical? Certainly. But at least I don't lie to myself about what I'm doing.

I wonder if the software companies would complain so much if all the software pirates sent in the amount of cash that they felt the program was worth. Imagine: Streams of income with zero additional cost associated with it (since the pirates "wouldn't have bought the program anyway")... I bet they'd lighten up on software piracy then.

 

[Reilley]

People rip off software and music and movies for the same reason that a dog licks his privates: because he can. Trying to make theft smell better won't work, but hey, most of the people in prison don't think they really belong there. They can all justify what they did.

 

[TerraMortim]

I can't believe that this thread is still alive. And it's funny. Page 53 has the same arguments as page 5... and they've still gone nowhere.

To the people who say "I wouldn't have bought this $500 program anyway": If you were walking through your local computer store and saw your $500 program on super clearance for $9.99, would you buy it? I suspect you would. Maybe if you saw it on clearance for $50? $100? Regardless, there's certainly some price (other than free) that you'd be willing to pay for the program that you so arduously defend.

Therefore, you ARE in fact robbing the manufacturer of that 10 or 50 or 100 or whatever dollars that you'd be WILLING to pay for the program (try stealing a ten dollar item from the store and see how that goes over). True, they may not be offering it for that cheap, but you're not willing to wait and see. Furthermore, because you're using this state of the art stolen program, you're also depriving someone of the affordable (albeit less featured) program that you WOULD have bought (Cakewalk Guitar Tracks or the like).

Now, when people dig back into this thread and see my position earlier on this subject, I'd like to say that I still have no issue with my own pirated software, although I would certainly buy the software if it came down to what I was willing to pay for it. Hypocritical? Certainly. But at least I don't lie to myself about what I'm doing.

I wonder if the software companies would complain so much if all the software pirates sent in the amount of cash that they felt the program was worth. Imagine: Streams of income with zero additional cost associated with it (since the pirates "wouldn't have bought the program anyway")... I bet they'd lighten up on software piracy then.

don't totally agree with all points... but yes...very good idea. For certain software, I would LOVE to give any money I could to the companies, however cannot always afford the price it's listed for.

 

[TerraMortim]

People rip off software and music and movies for the same reason that a dog licks his privates: because he can. Trying to make theft smell better won't work, but hey, most of the people in prison don't think they really belong there. They can all justify what they did.

Software piracy is much worse than rape!!!!

 

[danny.guitar]

don't totally agree with all points... but yes...very good idea. For certain software, I would LOVE to give any money I could to the companies, however cannot always afford the price it's listed for.

Then use something else.

 

[Robert D]

For certain cars, I would LOVE to give any money I could to the companies, however cannot always afford the price it's listed for, so I steal em.

 

[TerraMortim]

cars vs. an idea. I don't think I need to explain that to you.

 

[TerraMortim]

Then use something else.

That's not the point to what he said. It was a "wouldn't that be nice" chill.

 

[fraserhutch]

cars vs. an idea. I don't think I need to explain that to you.

That "idea' represents MAYBE 10% 'idea' and 90% damn hard work and sweat. It is a product like any other product, where what you pay does not in any way reflect the costs associated with making it. It is not free for you to pirate, depite the fact that the barriers to doing so are low, no matter how you want to rationalize it. That's where peronal integrity comes in.

 

[danny.guitar]

That's not the point to what he said. It was a "wouldn't that be nice" chill.

I was responding to what you said.

 

[TerraMortim]

I was responding to what you said.

in which you must understand what I was responding to to get what I said. Reading is very cool. All the cool kids do it.

 

[TerraMortim]

That "idea' represents MAYBE 10% 'idea' and 90% damn hard work and sweat. It is a product like any other product, where what you pay does not in any way reflect the costs associated with making it. It is not free for you to pirate, depite the fact that the barriers to doing so are low, no matter how you want to rationalize it. That's where peronal integrity comes in.

with myself...it doesn't cost money with those who deserve the money as I ALWAYS buy it. What I was referring to, as with many things in society, it would be so much better if there were a system based on what people could afford. There are morons out thee who believe the world owes them everything for free, but there are people with an ethic to always purchase as much as they can. A system which charged people what was affordable would be interesting...would never happen though...it goes beyond piracy..

Anyway, unfortunately, I think that people on this particular forum are sealed into their particular beliefs, regardless of which side they fall on...and any intelliecual, or proactive debate cannot survive in such an atmospere...

....

 

[Reilley]

ÄË |$ ‹ó‹ÍÁé ó¥‹ I‹s ƒáó¤.

 

[wreckd504]

In principle stealing a car, is the same as stealing a program. Just because you may not have to break any glass or jimmy the ignition of "try before you buy" software, doesn't mean you haven't stolen it, or make it any better.

 

[danny.guitar]

Just buy the damn software or use something else. Doesn't get any more simple than that.

The only 'defense' I've seen from software pirates is:

1. I wouldn't have bought it anyway
Then why are you using it? Use something else in your budget.

2. The companies are overcharging
Companies can charge whatever they want for whatever product they want. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

3. The companies aren't losing any physical profit or property
No, they aren't, but you're still *stealing* (and breaking the law).

4. I can't afford it
Get a better job, or go to school. Or just buy a cheaper DAW.

5. The companies don't prevent cracking good enough, it's their own fault.
If you've never developed software before then just shut the hell up, because you don't know how hard it is to prevent piracy and still be convenient for loyal customers.

 

[Robert D]

5. The companies don't prevent cracking good enough, it's their own fault.

That one slays me! I've actually heard people say it. Imagine that world, where the fact that you had cheap locks on the doors of your house, and no security system on your car becomes a workable defense in court for those that would steal your car and your posessions from your home.

Or how abour rape? "Your honor, she was askin for it, bein out at night with no mace or pepper spray".

 

[Toker41]

That goes back to the fact that there is no real effort put into anti-piracy because it is not a real problem in the bottom line. XP has great anti-piracy technology, showing that it can be done, but simply isn't. Gotta ask "why?".
I see a lot of people standing on soapboxes on threads like this, but very little effort, or action of any kind from the industry. Stealing is wrong. Period. It is "breaking the law". However, very little is done about it, so it must not really be that big a problem. Just gives "holy rollers" stones to throw, and something to bitch about when they should be spending their time minding their own business, and recording.

Attacking "pirates" on threads like this isn't going to change anything. Certainly isn't stopping anybody from using illegal software. So why do you people come here to bash these people? To point out evil that doesn't effect you, and you can't do anything about? To feel better about yourselves by pointing out others wrongs? Why do you care what others do, when it has nothing to do with you? This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear some of you people's answers.

FOR THE RECORD: ALL ME SOFTWARE IS PAID FOR, AND OBTAINED LEGALLY. So, please spare me the "your promoting stealing" crap. I am not. I am simply not beating up on people who's actions have no bearing on my life, and am simply inquiring what drives others to do so.

 

[boingoman]

I am simply not beating up on people who's actions have no bearing on my life, and am simply inquiring what drives others to do so.

Calling people holy rollers, saying their opinions and concerns are "bitching". No, you're not beating on anyone.

Really, you just like to hear yourself talk, just like everybody else. Get off your own soapbox, junior. You got nothin'.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Dave, the truce holds, I'm not going to get into it personal again, but there is a lot of misinformation here, even if it is unintentional. I'll keep a reply civil:

That goes back to the fact that there is no real effort put into anti-piracy because it is not a real problem in the bottom line. XP has great anti-piracy technology, showing that it can be done, but simply isn't. Gotta ask "why?".

If XP were actually in demand amongst the hacker community, and wasn't automatically included with every PC manufactured since 2001 up until Vista replaced it, there'd be a public crack out there for everybody within 2 or 3 weeks. And I'm speaking as a software develper who knows what's involved. There's no such thing as uncrackable software.

In fact, you don't even have to wait. Go to China and you'll find cracked copies of XP sold on every streetcorner. There's a demand for it there. The only difference between commercial software that has been cracked and commercial software that has not been cracked is the amount of demand for it in the pirate community.

I see a lot of people standing on soapboxes on threads like this

On both sides of the argument. How is your soapbox against our soapbox any better? More to the point, an honest question: why do people who bitch about others not only breaking the law, but about those who openly and maliciously advocate it in public (and no I'm not accusing you of that here), bother you so much?

I mean, there are soapboxers on both sides of the issue. Why is it those that come down on the side of law and ethics raise your ire more than those who advocate theft? I have yet to see you argue with a piracy advocate, yet you have no problem arguing technicalities with a pro-legality advocate. Just because you have a debatable technical disagreement with one of their bullet points having to do with effect upon corporate bottom line?

Stealing is wrong. Period. It is "breaking the law".

What is the meaning to the quotes? Is it breaking the law or isn't it?

However, very little is done about it, so it must not really be that big a problem.

False logic built upon a false premise. Millions of dollars are spent every year in R&D, licensing costs and court costs in attempts to provide some form of data security and copy protection. Ask anybody who owns full-version Steinberg software legally, buys $.99 iTunes singles, or plays commercial DVDs on their computer, just for three immediate and easy examples from three different branches of digital media.

As I mentioned a while ago, quality data security and copy protection are expensive to implement - the better the protection, the more expensive. And such security measures make the software less attractive to the average end user - agian, the more effective the security, the less attractive because the more hoops the end user must jump through (e.g. dongles, passwords, platform immobility, etc.) Every developer must weigh those real and virtual costs against the benefits of providing such protection - how effective will they be against piracy.

The dichotomy that they face (and that I faced personally as part of the engineering team for just such a company) is that the more popular the software, the more it would, on paper, benefit from anti-piracy measures; however, the more popular the software, the bigger the bullseye the pirates will paint on it and the quicker it will be cracked. And, as anyone who has an illegal copy of Nuendo will tell you, even measures like dongles are irrelevant to the qualified crakcer.

The upshot is that most software manufacturers just do not put a whole effort into anti-piracy measures, not because it doen't matter to them or their bottom line, but because they simply have to throw their hands up and surrender to the fact that they'd just be spending extra development and licensing costs only to still see their product wind up on BitTorrent anyway.

Attacking "pirates" on threads like this isn't going to change anything. Certainly isn't stopping anybody from using illegal software. So why do you people come here to bash these people? To point out evil that doesn't effect you, and you can't do anything about? To feel better about yourselves by pointing out others wrongs? Why do you care what others do, when it has nothing to do with you? This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear some of you people's answers.

There's a couple of reasons, Dave, that have nothing to do with narcissism as you suggest.

You're right in that the core legalists will never convince the core pirates, and vice versa. However, there are plenty of people sitting on the fence, or who only steal part-time, as the results of this very poll show. There is still some influence that can be exerted on those folks (from both sides) so that when it comes time to acquire their next piece of software, they might actually think a little about it before making the buy/steal decision.

And the world I live in has everything to do with me. I DO care what others do. They have free will (within the law) and I wouldn't presume to TELL them what to do. But when one see a societal attitude festering that says it's OK to break the law, that stealing for anything less than last resort sustenance can be justified away, and that somehow one's personal rights are created more equal than the rights of their fellow man, I feel they have an obligation to stand up and say, "Now hold on just a second. I'm not going to let that disease spread throughout my world, my community, and therefore my life without my at least putting up an objection, if not a downright fight."

Let me ask you this in return, Dave. If you are walking down the street and see someone commit a crime or actively suppress someone else's rights, are you going to just turn your head and ignore it based upon the premise that, hey, that's their business, not mine? And that if someone else does speak up or otherwise try to stop it, that they are just being self-righteous holy rollers? And furthermore, that while the comission of the crime was not enough to get you to speak up, somehow the person who objects to the commission of the crime is the person you'd rather choose to pick a battle with instead?

FOR THE RECORD: ALL ME SOFTWARE IS PAID FOR, AND OBTAINED LEGALLY. So, please spare me the "your promoting stealing" crap. I am not. I am simply not beating up on people who's actions have no bearing on my life, and am simply inquiring what drives others to do so.

And two final questions, Dave. Do you HONESTLY believe that when people read your posts knocking down some arguments against piracy, and that when you call those who do so "righteous holy rollers", that you are not, implicity and by default - even if it's not your intention - assisting the pro-piracy argument? And do you HONESTLY believe that when you essentailly say "piracy is wrong" while putting 100 times those words into arguments striking down the reasons given why piracy is wrong, and into striking down those who give those reasons, that the net effect of your posts *in reality* does not come out sounding extremely pro-piracy, regardless of your intent?

G.

 

[Reilley]

"""That goes back to the fact that there is no real effort put into anti-piracy..."""

Yes, there is. There are lobby groups, new legislation coming, technical work going on, and citizen involvement. I've reported people myself. I know a business office, which does very well financially, and all their software is pirated by their "tech guy." I know a very well off young man in the computer industry, and all his music is pirated, and that is a lot. Rich, poor, whatever: it's a matter of whether people have a conscience or not. There are things I can't afford. I go without them. I have no right to take them.