Techno-Archeology: TimeLine Product Documentation and Upkeep

A TASCAM ATS-500. The whole story is earlier in the thread, but the short version is that the ATS-500 drives the TSR-8 via code-only lock, chasing the MX-80. I could probably get the Timelines to drive the MX80 chasing the TSR-8, but since this setup is working well enough for my needs, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I didn't recall the earlier story here...anyway, I would probably do the same thing, let the TSR-8 chase the MX-80...though with the Timelines, you get more comprehensive control of the MX-80...if you needed it.

Maybe you covered this earlier too...?...but why do you even use the TSR-8...is it for the extra track count, or...?
Are you still dumping to a DAW...?
 
Maybe you covered this earlier too...?...but why do you even use the TSR-8...is it for the extra track count, or...?
Are you still dumping to a DAW...?

Most of the songs are composed in a sequencer and dumped to tape using a Phil Rees TS-1 synchronizer. That stuff goes directly to the 24-track. Things which require lots of punch-ins and retakes like bass, vocals and more complex tape effects such as reverse reverb, reverse drums, tape loops etc, those are recorded on the TSR-8 first, and then copied to the 24-track using the ATS-500 to lock the machines together.
This also provides for things like copy-paste choruses (which I don't do much) by adjusting the timecode offset, so that e.g. it copies from 0:58 on the 8-track tape to 2:30 on the 24-track.
The TSR-8 is very good at doing automatic punch-ins as well. I was never able to get that to work on the Otari.
The other reason is that bits which need to be done over and over and over and over and over again until they're right, are wearing down the TSR-8 rather than the MX-80. And I have a lot of TSR-8 spare parts.
Sometimes I'll still do a complete song on the TSR-8, especially when I'm deliberately using the 8-track constraints for 1960s-era stuff. But mostly it's being used for bass and vocals. This also means that I can fit the bass/vocal sessions for two songs on the same stretch of tape, e.g. 'Daryil Answered 2019' uses tracks 1-4, while 'Song of Keaton 2019' uses tracks 5-7.
 
The other reason is that bits which need to be done over and over and over and over and over again until they're right, are wearing down the TSR-8 rather than the MX-80. And I have a lot of TSR-8 spare parts.

I have been thinking about this same issue in the past...since I would usually just track to tape until I was ready to dump to DAW, and sometimes I might do a bunch of passes before I nail a guitar or vocal part, etc...so I started thinking that I could use the DAW for more than just dumping the final tape tracks to.

Basically...drop my scratch/drum track on the tape and also in the DAW (both locked)...then use the DAW to get the tracks/parts worked out, and then lock back to the tape deck and do my final passes(s).

My other, current option is to just drop a bunch of passes to tape, dump to DAW and comp or select the best one...rather than trying to re-record a single pass to the same tape track until it's right (because I don't have any other free tracks, etc).

They use to take a couple identical tape decks, lock them, create a copy, use that for tracking, then copy the perfect take back to the first deck, and onto the original tape...then switch back to the other deck. That way, each track on the primary tape is fresh, with minimal passes to the tape.
That's kinda how I was thinking of using the DAW...but I wouldn't copy a track from the DAW...rather just use it to rehearse, and then just record to the tape deck when I was ready.

Of course, there is also the third option...use only the tape deck, and as soon as a good take is down...dump that track(s) to the DAW...then go back and record other tracks on the tape, and when you get a good one, quick dump it, so every take is fresh and immediately transferred to the DAW...
...or some version of that, maybe do a few tracks and then dump, rather than waiting for the entire 24 to be filled up.
 
I have a lynx KCU which on startup reminds me that my lynx use old software and that I should use V500-26d or F500-26d or later. My lynx use V500-26b. do you know which versions these downloads are please.

Garry
 
I just have to offer a humble but hearty huzzah [MENTION=31942]jpmorris[/MENTION]...ramsammy, no offense, but to me your question was, like, crazy-obscure. I thought “WTH *nobody* is going to have an answer for you...” Wrong. In swoops jpmorris with the concise exact answer. I am impressed and appreciative.
 
I just have to offer a humble but hearty huzzah [MENTION=31942]jpmorris[/MENTION]...ramsammy, no offense, but to me your question was, like, crazy-obscure. I thought “WTH *nobody* is going to have an answer for you...” Wrong. In swoops jpmorris with the concise exact answer. I am impressed and appreciative.

DITTO

I have no idea what the question was or what kind of answer it deserved...and BINGO!...he drops it like he was ordering coffee. :)

So maybe this is a good moment to resurrect a topic that was covered way back in this thread, and something I was meaning to get around to for like the last year or more, but life got in the way.
What I'm referring to is the process and equipment needed to 1.) copy the data of the EPROMs of my Otari MX80 without f**king them up, since I have no backup/spares (that's what I want to create)...and then 2. transfer the data to a computer file...and/or also find some spare EPROMs of the same type, and write the data to them or just have them ready for writing, as I think it's probably best to save the data as a file rather than on another EPROM.

Going back to some of the links I saved way back...I have this as my only starting point, and I'm sure if I call them, they can at least give me some guidance of that else I need (it looks like they have all the necessary stuff)...but I would like to have the conversation here too if anyone has done this or is clear on how to do it.
I mean...I understand the basic process...but I just want to be 110% sure, because I don't want to destroy my existing, working EPROMs from the MX80 while attempting to copy the data from them. That would a very unhappy situation...to say the least. :( :D

Here's that one link I saved: MCUmall Electronics Inc. A low cost EPROM EEPROM Atmel PIC I2C SPI programmer online store
 
DITTO
I have no idea what the question was or what kind of answer it deserved...and BINGO!...he drops it like he was ordering coffee. :)

It just so happened that 500-series EPROMs were in a box and had the revision code written on them. If they were still in the machine, or didn't have the code written on them by whoever burned them before me, I'd have had no idea.

So maybe this is a good moment to resurrect a topic that was covered way back in this thread, and something I was meaning to get around to for like the last year or more, but life got in the way.
What I'm referring to is the process and equipment needed to 1.) copy the data of the EPROMs of my Otari MX80 without f**king them up, since I have no backup/spares (that's what I want to create)...and then 2. transfer the data to a computer file...and/or also find some spare EPROMs of the same type, and write the data to them or just have them ready for writing, as I think it's probably best to save the data as a file rather than on another EPROM.

Going back to some of the links I saved way back...I have this as my only starting point, and I'm sure if I call them, they can at least give me some guidance of that else I need (it looks like they have all the necessary stuff)...but I would like to have the conversation here too if anyone has done this or is clear on how to do it.
I mean...I understand the basic process...but I just want to be 110% sure, because I don't want to destroy my existing, working EPROMs from the MX80 while attempting to copy the data from them. That would a very unhappy situation...to say the least. :( :D

Here's that one link I saved: MCUmall Electronics Inc. A low cost EPROM EEPROM Atmel PIC I2C SPI programmer online store

Fortunately I have the MX80 EPROMs in the same box at the Lynx ones. Mine are the following:
PG08211K (CPU board) - 27C256K (256Kbit)
PG08311 (remote card) - 27C128K (128 Kbit)
PG03311B (CB140 ROM) - 27C256-2 (256 Kbit)

Autolocator:
PG07121K (CB120 ROM) - 27C256G-25 (256 Kbit)
PG07122K (CB120 ROM) - 27C256G-25 (256 Kbit)

So you'll need at least two 27C256 EPROMs for the deck and remote (assuming the remote is a CB140 - others may vary), plus a 27C128 chip, and another two 27C256s if you're doing the CB120 autolocator as well.
It is probably a good idea to get a couple of spares, just in case you end up with a duff EPROM (especially when buying them used off ebay).

When I first started doing this with the Studer, I had problems getting hold of 27C128 chips. It is possible to substitute a 27C256 instead - but since it's twice the size, you'll need to have two copies of the program on the chip, one after the other so both halves of the chip contain the same program. (i.e. a 27C128 chip has 16KB of data. The 27C256 has 32KB - you'd need to have two copies, one running from 0000-3FFF and a second copy running from 4000-7FFF). This may be tricky depending on how good the software is for your burner. If you can get a 27C128 you won't have to mess around with that.

I've only used the ART programmer and its ancient DOS software (which happily works in DOSbox with a USB-parallel cable). But the basic process is this:
1. Carefully remove the chip from the deck. An EPROM remover tool is a good idea, less chance of bending the pins.
2. Place the chip into the EPROM burner. This has a ZIF socket with a lever. When the lever's up, the chip can be added or removed. When the lever's down, the chip is locked in place. MAKE SURE the chip is the right way around! There should be a notch on the ZIF socket showing which way round the chip goes.
3. Somewhere in the software there should be an option to read the contents of the EPROM. On my software you're supposed to choose the type of chip from a list first, so that it knows what pinout it's using. This should read the chip's data into memory, you can then save it to disk somewhere. More recent software might be able to autodetect, I have no idea.
4. Once this is done, the software will hopefully give you the checksum of the data. If you write this down, you can use it to check that the programming worked properly later. Remove the chip and put it somewhere safe, preferably on an antistatic foam mat.

Now we need to write a copy of the chip. As you may be aware, EPROMs are erased with UV light. On mine, the first step of programming the chip is that the software will read in all the contents first, to make sure it's blank. This protects you from accidents if you somehow tried to program the original by mistake, and also ensures that the EPROM is in a suitable state to be programmed.
If the target EPROM hasn't been erased first, you probably want to do so. You need an EPROM eraser, which is basically a UVC tube in a lightproof box with automatic shutoff and often a timer. I put mine in for 30 minutes.

5. Once you have a suitably erased EPROM, put it into the programmer.
6. If you don't still have the ROM data in memory, load it from disk.
7. Make sure you've got the chip type selected. This is likely to depend on the software. On mine it had a list of them from multiple manufacturers, since they may have slightly different strategies for programming. e.g. if you're programming an Intel D27256-2, pick that or the nearest match in the list. For a Mitsubishi M5L27256K pick that or a similar chip of the same size also made by Mitsubishi.
8. Burn the data to the chip. This may take a while. On mine the software verifies it afterwards, but if you're super paranoid, you could read the EPROM back into the software as per step 3, and make sure that the checksum is the same as you wrote down earlier.

Now you can remove the copy from the machine. What I tend to do is put the original in a box somewhere safe, and put the copy back into the deck to make sure that it works. Probably best to do this one chip at a time - otherwise if one of them does go wrong, you won't necessarily know exactly which chip is to blame.

It might be good idea to get some second-hand chips with data and practice steps 1-4 on those to make sure it works, before trying it on the real thing. The software should have a way to view the EPROM contents once it's been read in - there are nearly always some human-readable strings inside the program code.

Good luck!
 
Good luck!

Wow!

That's a lot of great info to get started on. Thanks a lot!
I will have to find a moment to sit down and digest, and then see what I need.
I have both 140 and 124 remotes...no auto-locator.
When I had my 140 rebuilt by a longtime Otari tech about 3 years ago, he also sent me chips for the 124 remote and the MX80 communications card. He had all the data for the EPROMs and the ability to code them...so I got all freshly written EPROMs in the deck and the two remotes.
He did tell me that the EPROMs are susceptible to data loss over time...and if I start getting a lot of com errors, then it might be the EPROMs.

I've not had contact with him since. Last time I spoke with him he was moving from his Chicago(?) location to something more rural...he said the gangs were starting to take over the neighborhood, and he wanted to get out of there. He also told me he would keep the same phone number and email...but when I emailed him a couple of year ago, I didn't get a reply...so I'm not sure what the deal is. He was an older guy...or maybe he just totally retired.
Anyway...he was my backup plan...but now I feel I should try and get this EPROM stuff together in case he's done with the biz for whatever reason.

I'm in the middle of my studio build right now...my brain is going in 5 directions...so I probably won't dive into this seriously for at least the next month or two...but I wanted to start gathering the info and sourcing the equipment and parts needed for me to make copies.

So then...do you have the MX80 codes in some computer file format...?
Is it something that can be copied, uploaded, downloaded...etc?
I would like to work this out so I can do it myself...but it would be good to know that someone has the data files in case I mess something up. :eek: :D
 
Wow!
I'm in the middle of my studio build right now...my brain is going in 5 directions...so I probably won't dive into this seriously for at least the next month or two...but I wanted to start gathering the info and sourcing the equipment and parts needed for me to make copies.

So then...do you have the MX80 codes in some computer file format...?
Is it something that can be copied, uploaded, downloaded...etc?
I would like to work this out so I can do it myself...but it would be good to know that someone has the data files in case I mess something up. :eek: :D

Yes, they're all linked at the start of the thread, around page 3. I would be interested to know the build dates on yours, since they might not be the same. Most of mine are from '89 by the looks.
 
Only found out a week or so ago that we have this...National Science and Media Museum

There is more about it in the current issue of Sound on Sound. Don't know who they have there or what they know but might be worth contacting by you guys who are into this old gear?

Dave.
 
Only found out a week or so ago that we have this...National Science and Media Museum

There is more about it in the current issue of Sound on Sound. Don't know who they have there or what they know but might be worth contacting by you guys who are into this old gear?

Dave.

That seems to be mostly about cinema, photography and odds-n-ends...but I didn't see anything about audio, at least from the little bit of surfing I did...though it's still pretty interesting stuff.
 
That seems to be mostly about cinema, photography and odds-n-ends...but I didn't see anything about audio, at least from the little bit of surfing I did...though it's still pretty interesting stuff.

Yes, I found the museum's website disappointing as well but I only skimmed. The article in SoS is about them aquiring Jon Burton's Midas XL3 desk.

Dave.
 
Hi Does anyone on here have experience with the Lynx System Supervisor Unit? I have two lynx 1 and I would like to get a midi out signal and the supervisor unit seems to offer this. Or is it possible to use a microlynx connected to my lynx via the serial link. either of these units appear to output midi and I am hopeful that something may come up for sale here in the UK.

Cheers Garry
 
Well...if you have a Microlynx...then you don't need the Lynx 1 units....just get a keyboard controller for the Microlynx.
I like the Microlynx...it's more robust than the older Lynx 1 units.
I find that the keyboards are easier to come by on the used market than the racked Microlynx unit...so it should not be that expensive, if you already have the Microlynx.
The number of people still using those Timline units is dwindling. I think there are only a few of us left here.
It's too bad they closed down...these were great synchronizers...but I guess the need for them faded quickly when DAWs became the rage, and tape decks (audio and video) became less and less used.
 
Well...if you have a Microlynx...then you don't need the Lynx 1 units....just get a keyboard controller for the Microlynx.
I like the Microlynx...it's more robust than the older Lynx 1 units.
I find that the keyboards are easier to come by on the used market than the racked Microlynx unit...so it should not be that expensive, if you already have the Microlynx.
The number of people still using those Timline units is dwindling. I think there are only a few of us left here.
It's too bad they closed down...these were great synchronizers...but I guess the need for them faded quickly when DAWs became the rage, and tape decks (audio and video) became less and less used.

Thanks miroslav, I have the lynx 1s up and running at the present, and thanks to jpmorris providing the code I have successfully upgraded the V500 software. I also have the older KCU which altogether works very well. Midi however, is now provided by taking a regenerated signal from one of the lynx's and into a Motu digital timepiece, this I fear may introduce some latency. The racked microlynx would do great I think, but they are very hard to find, which is why I am looking at other options. There is also a Timeline TL-Sychroniser that would do, again,very rare.
I will keep on looking.
Thanks Garry
 
Hi all, Did anyone upload the eprom images for a Microlynx?
I have recently aquired a Microlynx with (I think) corrupted eproms. versions CP 1.35 and MC 1.34. I am assuming electrical connections are good. There are LEDs on the circuit board that are all lit, and I am led to believe that these things either flash or not light at all if there is a contact fault. The two LEDs on the front panel flash for a while on boot up and then go out. The keyboard Data led flashes but no valid LED. I live in hope.
Thanks Garry
 
The two LEDs on the front panel flash for a while on boot up and then go out. The keyboard Data led flashes but no valid LED.

Can you be more specific...which two LEDs? Some LEDs being on/off will tell you the state of the system.

When I boot up mine...the keyboard has a lot of flashing LEDs...not just two.
Once I punch up the settings I want to use, they stop flashing.
Errors will also be indicated in the LCD screen on the keyboard.

Before you do anything else...I would open up the units, and clean all connections. That means popping off the internal ribbon cables, and also removing anything with sockets...like the EPROMS and cleaning off the contacts.

These units are real, real old...if they've been just sitting on someone's shelf for 15-20 years...they need a cleaning and deoxidization of contacts.
Be gentle...be careful. You don't want to snap off any EPROM legs or pin connectors. :)
Sometimes it's best to work the EPROM a little first, by just pushing down on it a bit...and with the pin connectors, a little wiggle before pulling off.
That way any oxidized points will let loose before you try to pull those.

AFGA the EPROM images...it's been on my to-do list for a long time. :facepalm:
I still need to get the reader/writer device and do that for both the Microlynx and my Otari tape deck.
 
OK...I diced to get off my ass and start the process of acquiring the needed items to read/write EPROMs.
Plus I have all that great info jpmorris provided above.

I sent an email to MCUMall to see what they tell me...but I'm pretty sure I know what I need to get.

MCUmall Electronics Inc. A low cost EPROM EEPROM Atmel PIC I2C SPI programmer online store

Not sure when exactly all this will happen...but usually once I get motivated, I tend to stick to it until the task is done. :D
It's just that right now I'm still in studio construction mode...but this kinda works out, since I was planning to do a complete overhaul of my Otari MX-80 once it's moved into the new studio...so it will be a good time to also take care of the EPROM stuff.
 
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