You guys want to see a killer drummer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tim Brown
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Wow!!! Does he have any endorsments yet!!!!he does slump at the shoulders but none of us are perfect, i might learn that heel toe technique!!!!
 
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It says unedited/unmixed scrath track? His drums sound pretty damn good for being un touched in the recording....

Btw, what is that on his kickdrum?

And.. how do you avoid shin splints when doin heel-toe?

Thanks :D
 
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spitfire909x said:
It says unedited/unmixed scrath track? His drums sound pretty damn good for being un touched in the recording....

Btw, what is that on his kickdrum?

And.. how do you avoid shin splints when doin heel-toe?

Thanks :D
Click to expand...

That's a small Kick Drum Tunnel.

As fas I know, I haven't heard of Shin Splints being a problem with the HT method.


Tim
 
Thanks Tim, not trying to be a nuisance but I have a final question.. guy on Pearl forums recommends lowering his pedal so its almost flat with the ground, I have an Iron Cobra double pedal.. how would I go about doing this so I maintain power with the pedals? I want that extra speed for HT but I don't want to sacrifice power on my single strokes, and his tutorial vid isn't working for me :( If you know of any good websites showing some different adjustment techniques or something that'd be awesome.

Thanks bro :)
 
Hi Spitfire, I will chime in. I don't find the flat as possible footboard works for me, but it is always good to try new adjustments for your pedals to find what works for you. The key to heel and toe is to get the whipping motion between the heel stroke and toe movement. Some (like in the video link) use only the ball of the foot instead of the heel. It takes time and practice, but once you get the movement, you will see what I mean.

I start the movement with the beater against the head and then drop my heel followed by a quick whip of the toes back to the beater again. Do a search on the Pearl Drum Forum, there are a ton of threads on heel and toe and Iron Cobra adjustments (sorry I don't have an IC).
 
spitfire909x said:
Thanks Tim, not trying to be a nuisance but I have a final question.. guy on Pearl forums recommends lowering his pedal so its almost flat with the ground, I have an Iron Cobra double pedal.. how would I go about doing this so I maintain power with the pedals? I want that extra speed for HT but I don't want to sacrifice power on my single strokes, and his tutorial vid isn't working for me :( If you know of any good websites showing some different adjustment techniques or something that'd be awesome.

Thanks bro :)
Click to expand...

Well, the reason for setting that, is so that when your footpedal is at the lowest point in it's motion, and the mallet is resting against the head, you have a 90 degree angle on the pedal. It's to save you from wasting motion.

I don't really know of any sites that teach Heel-Toe, his videos look pretty much dead on to me. You would have to raise the tension of the springs anyway you look at it, so it would build up your single strokes as well.


tim
 
Hey guys, this is an interesting thread..... However.... I hate to interject, but Marco is not doing the heel-toe in this video. Its NEARLY impossible to tell what a drummer is doing with his feet from in front of the kit.... but, if you look at his left leg when he is doing his double bass, it is moving in a single-stroke fashion. You can count the single strokes while watching. Heel toe strokes wouldn't look much different than when he's doing his alternate foot technique during the blasts.... The leg movement is very similar. A close friend of mine does the heel-toe, and its a totally different look than single strokes... Each leg moves just like your hands would during double strokes... the legs would move in half-time. THis is clearly single stroke rolls on the feet. One of the posters on here said they noticed that the guy isn't moving his legs much... that's the key to fast single stroke rolls on the feet. Just like a fast single stroke roll with the hands is either wrists or fingers, or a combination of both, the fast single stroke rolls on the feet is with ankle movement, not leg movement... with practice, you develop just as much volume with an ankle stroke as you do with a full leg stroke.... Volume isn't power, its how quickly the beater hits the head. Another point I want to make is this... it doesn't matter how tight or loose your springs are, because the beater, if striking the head properly will rebound very quickly. The trick is to hit the head, then get your foot out of the way so the beater doesn't stay on the head... sounds simple, but you'd be surprised how few drummers realize that... Speed is never about the downstroke. Its about the upstroke. tight springs in actuality slow you down... because they make you waste energy on the spring, instead of getting that energy to the beater and head... its basic physics. The most "correct" spring adjustment on a bass pedal is one that is comfortable to play, but is not sloppy...in other words, tight enough to pull the beater back on its own quickly, but not so tight that its hard to press down. Springs are simply there to pull the pedal back up... you don't want them too loose though, because like I said, you don't want them sloppy either. but a drummer can adjust to any condition... Weak feet are because of not enough practice with them and have nothing to do with spring tension. You don't have springs on your sticks, and weak hands are a result of not enough practice. the trick to speed drumming is simple... 1, don't play "through" the drumhead like a golf stroke... play "to" the drumhead. as soon as the stick or beater has made contact, get out of the way of it, let the rebound do its work, and come back for the next stroke... 2, relax. Tense muscles are slow muscles.... 3. don't worry about volume.... as you develop the technique, the volume will come naturally, and you will be relaxed and comfortable.... 4... dynamics control... if you're doing really fast double bass, its obviously not going to be as loud as one forceful stroke, so when you're doing beats, don't kick the shit out of the pedal.... make your single beats somewhere around the same volume as your fastest rolls.... there is where the consistency comes in. And once you've gotten dynamic control, you can always pull out a heavy hit for a strong accent if it serves the song.... Drumming is not a sport, it is a skill. its about consistency, control, relaxation, speed, and being able to play slow when needed. The heel-toe technique is a great technique to learn, but you can play just as fast in most cases with single stroke rolls... The single stroke roll takes just as much time to master as the heel-toe, so I advise people to learn both so they have both in their toolbox..... And telling people to tighten their springs as tight as they will go is atrocious.... sorry, that is just bad technique.... some people like springs that tight, and that's ok for them.... but most people like a more comfortable pedal... you don't want to waste energy, and having super-tight springs is wasteful, and it fosters improper foot technique. Don't believe me? loosen your springs to where they're comfortable, but not too loose to be sloppy, play the pedals for 3 months and tell me you don't see serious gains..... But you gotta practice. Alot. You'll find that you can play MUCH LONGER with comfortable pedals without fatigue, and go MUCH faster, once you get the technique down.
 
Oh yeah, and proper heel-toe technique would not require any pedal adjustment... you could line up 60 bass drums with all sorts of different pedal setups and types, and a person who can properly execute it will do so on all of the pedals... they may have to adjust a little from pedal to pedal.... but for the most part they will execute it very well... Hate to burst your bubble tim...
 
Metal Ist Krieg said:
Oh yeah, and proper heel-toe technique would not require any pedal adjustment... you could line up 60 bass drums with all sorts of different pedal setups and types, and a person who can properly execute it will do so on all of the pedals... they may have to adjust a little from pedal to pedal.... but for the most part they will execute it very well... Hate to burst your bubble tim...
Click to expand...


Nah, No bubble busting - you posted some great info there!

I only know Heel-Toe from my own learning of it, and I don't really know too many locals who use it. A lot of the Death Metal players locally are trying to use Derek Roddy's techniques, but from what I've seen of him vs. them - they have a LONG way to go, hahaha They all have their pedals so loose that it's sloppy, you know what I mean?

The only reason I say tighten them down is to build the muscles up, once you do that, you can loosen them up. But then again, Derek Roddy plays with his pedals as tight as they will go, as well.(or at least according to his website that's what he claims.)

I play heel down and use Vruk Heel plates, so it feels better to me with the spring tension really tight.


So, Marco is playing that All single-stroke?
Jesus, he just gained a whole lot more respect from me.
I don't really use Heel-Toe much, so my knowledge of it is pretty much rudimentary. I don't see much use for it except in any of the Extreme Metal categories. I mean, the stuff I used to play was pretty much regular old metal. I haven't played in quite some time since I no longer have a practice room (and local practice rooms run about $400 a month) so I rarely get to play these days - so I began taking vocal lessons because I can practice that in the car. :D


Tim
 
I hate posting posts like I did too because I don't wanna come off like a turd.... some drummers just like tight pedals, and hey that's cool... I think Derek has his all the way tight... I know some other drummers in the field that do, but most have them either medium, or leaning toward the light side...
When you kick your pedal, the spring should react quickly to get the beater back, but any more than that and you start wasting energy.... Extreme drumming is all about energy conservation. The calf muscle and the muscle in the front of your leg(the name slips my mind) are two of the hardest muscles to condition because they are constantly working to keep you balanced when you walk, run, they support all the weight in your body, etc.... so they are already accustomed to working all day, are difficult to train and easy to plateau.... However, that's where rudiments come in... shock training,(Intense workouts for WAY longer than normal about once a week) and constantly working them with single stroke rolls and doubles(natural doubles, not heel-toe doubles) paradiddles, and drills to work out your weak foot(if you have a weak foot).... but spring tension is more of a personal taste thing than anything else, as long as the beater gets off the head relatively quickly and it doesn't feel sloppy. Hell, i've even seen cats play sloppy floppy pedals to a level of precision I've not thought possible, so that must be taken into consideration as well.
Vocal lessons are great man... I sing... well... scream... but i could use some work on my melodic singing, that's for sure.
 
I've been practicing the heel-toe thing (or at least I think I have) for a couple of days. I usually pick up things quick but this is coming real hard to me. I can't actually play doubles faster than I can play singles. Even then, my singles are slow as far as most drummers can double bass. Doubles for me (on the feet) are really easy and fast with my right foot, since I have been playing mostly single bass for a few years, but I can barely do anything with my left. I was wondering if anyone knows of any kind of exersize (preferrably on the kit) that I can do to strenghten my left foot as fast as possible? I've been trying to play using only my left foot on bass and using the whole heel-toe doubles thing (as if I was playing single-bass with my left foot) and it's helping a little but I guess I am just impatient and want to have it come to me a lot faster... BUT I do want to say that I bought a new EMAD kick head, tuned it real deep, threw a pillow in my kick, broke out the ole' double iron cobra power glide, and got some DW HardCore beaters (BTW they are really light yet they still have power, and the attack on them is UNREAL, which is also adjustable, I HIGHLY recommend) and it's made it a little easier. I did use the technique of adjusting the pedal like on the pearl forums for heel-toe and I like it on the Iron Cobra. I've been juggling for a while between the cobra and a dw 9000 and right now, with this setup, i like the cobra better. And to think I was going to sell it haha.
Also, I'm trying to figure out that whole freehand thing and it looks like in the video (from this thread) hes not using the rim like Johnny Rabb suggests. Still, it's a badass technique and I want to learn it, I think it's more of the 'gravity blasts' thing, but regardless, it's freakin sweet.
 
Tim Brown said:
Okay, when you stike the rim and head at the same time, the back of the stick just drops down. While it is sitting on the rim, you just raise the back end of the stick up, so that it rocks across the rim, and strikes the head, sort of like a "see-saw" motion.

Watch the video I posted at the "tigerbill" website. Johnny Rabb totally explains it, and shows you how to do it.

Tim
Click to expand...


Yay! Took me about 10 minutes to get my right hand to sort of do it, once I visited a real drum (V-Drums don't work!) Impressed the turds out of the drum owner! :D
 
sirslurpee said:
I've been practicing the heel-toe thing (or at least I think I have) for a couple of days. I usually pick up things quick but this is coming real hard to me. I can't actually play doubles faster than I can play singles. Even then, my singles are slow as far as most drummers can double bass. Doubles for me (on the feet) are really easy and fast with my right foot, since I have been playing mostly single bass for a few years, but I can barely do anything with my left. I was wondering if anyone knows of any kind of exersize (preferrably on the kit) that I can do to strenghten my left foot as fast as possible? I've been trying to play using only my left foot on bass and using the whole heel-toe doubles thing (as if I was playing single-bass with my left foot) and it's helping a little but I guess I am just impatient and want to have it come to me a lot faster... BUT I do want to say that I bought a new EMAD kick head, tuned it real deep, threw a pillow in my kick, broke out the ole' double iron cobra power glide, and got some DW HardCore beaters (BTW they are really light yet they still have power, and the attack on them is UNREAL, which is also adjustable, I HIGHLY recommend) and it's made it a little easier. I did use the technique of adjusting the pedal like on the pearl forums for heel-toe and I like it on the Iron Cobra. I've been juggling for a while between the cobra and a dw 9000 and right now, with this setup, i like the cobra better. And to think I was going to sell it haha.
Also, I'm trying to figure out that whole freehand thing and it looks like in the video (from this thread) hes not using the rim like Johnny Rabb suggests. Still, it's a badass technique and I want to learn it, I think it's more of the 'gravity blasts' thing, but regardless, it's freakin sweet.
Click to expand...

Hello, a good technique to catch your weak foot up to your strong foot is to do two things... First and foremost,(It looks like you mentioned you were already doing something like this...) spend 10-30 minutes a day doing PLENTY of beats using only your weak foot... And by beats, I mean just about every kind of beat you can execute... If you have to slow it down a little bit that's cool, just remember to do the beats with the same punch and drive as your strong foot, and try to mimic the technique for your strong foot as much as possible to match them up... The second thing, and this is almost too easy.. spend about 10-30 minutes a day doing this exercise:
RLLLRLLLRLLLRLLLRLLLRLLLRLLLRLLLRLLL Then for 10-30 minutes do paradiddles:
RLRRLRLLRLRRLRLLRLRRLRLLRLRRLRLLRLRRLRLLRLRRLRLL
Don't forget about 10 mins of doubles:
RRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLL
Another good technique is to play along to random CDs. The music style is irrelevent, just do single strokes, paradiddles, Doubles, etc. on your feet in time with the music... Most CDs are recorded to a metronome so the timing should be pretty precise and this will assure that you're doing these techniques at an even tempo.
you will see MASSIVE gains after about two weeks, and after about 3 months, you'll be crushing the pedals...
Don't forget to shocktrain too. What I personally do is try to mix it up, but what I most often do is do single stroke double bass rolls as fast as I can cleanly for as long as I can do it... Then after a short break, I do it again for as long as I can. Then I work on my hands for a while, go back to the feet and cut the tempo in half and go as long as I can. About the freehand technique, Marco is indeed using the freehand technique in this video... It is difficult to see the fulcrim action from that angle, but he is indeed using the rim as a fulcrim on the one handed rolls. In extreme drumming, the gravity blast and the fulcrim roll are the same technique. I wish this video was shot from the side or overhead or a mix of angles.... Another good example of single-stroke double bass rolls and freehand technique is Darren Cesca from Goratory recording a track in the studio. I'll post the link to the video as soon as I can find it. About the V-drum freehand roll technique... the trick on a V-drum is to execute it as precisely as you can, and you have to center the stick on the drum so the trigger is directly under the stick...(Small pads like the 8 inches are extremely difficult, but it can be done) It takes a little adaptation, but after a little practice, a freehand roll can be executed flawlessly on an electronic pad. I still prefer an acoustic for the technique though... it seems to sound a bit more fluid...
 
word.. I've stopped trying to do doubles or heel-toe on the kick recently. Kind of too lazy. I did however go skateboarding the other night (yeah, in michigan, in the middle of feburary, outside) and I noticed almost right away that my feet and legs were weak, REAL weak. So I am kind of recovering from the muscle pain (aka building that shit up) and as soon as I can start feeling better I will try to practice some stuff. You are right about the rudiments on the bass drum, doubles, paradiddles, whatever the RLLLRLLLRLLL is? About the best I can do right now, single stroke double bass, is Avenged Sevenfold - Bat Country (awesome drums btw)
but I have been working on Shortest Straw by Metallica and Enemy Within by Arch Enemy and I think I can kick it up a notch in a couple of days. They're not extremely fast though and I'd think for playing double-bass for 5+ years I should be able to do it but I just can't. Hopefully I can get enough practice time to get those excersizes down and get some speed going. I really wanna be able to do some technical stuff with my feet like I would be able to on the snare or toms and throw triplets or 16ths on top of 8th notes or something just for kicks. Spice it up a lil.
Anyway, thanks for the advice...
 
I thought that was called the One Handed Swedish Roll?
It's a fun trick for sure.
 
Its known by many names... rim roll, fulcrim roll, one hander, gravity roll, gravity blast, etc... Lots of names, same technique... Its like the swivel technique on the feet is also called the cigerette crush or the side swing, etc...Moeller=wrist flip, back and forth, etc... Lots of names for techniques. Double bass practice doesn't have to be fast to be effective... its the repetition that does it, not nessicerily the speed. If you can do it fast, doing it slow cleans it up when you do it fast to going slower is good too. it also builds endurance to go slower... I don't know why, but backing it off a notch on the bpms can actually wear you out faster sometimes... Depends on what you're doing...
 
Oh please. This kid has nothing on these guys for speed, or hell, even technique:

Flo Mounier: http://flomounier.com/videos/FloMounierDrumSolohigh.html

or

Derek Roddy: http://www.derekroddy.com/free_video/will.wmv

or

George Kollias - https://youtube.com/watch?v=UDD8qSwVChA&search=George Kollias

If you want strictly technique:

http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-tokyo82704_01.wmv

Or how about this? If you want a younger player, how about Evan from the Pearl forums?!

http://www.epiarchdrums.com/evan/10.5.04storefinals1.mov

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The same reason people are oogling over this random guy, is the same reason Joey Jordison from Slipknot is idolized so much, because people dont know any better.
 
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