why bother with 24 bit

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nick The Man
  • Start date Start date
Mindset said:
That's what I'm learning in physics & audio. I guess they trying to teach us something else. Then I put the knowledge computers & how they measured together, and whola, that's my story.

I guess I just don't understand that if I took 44,100 pictures in 1 second of a 80Hz tone, why would it not be more accurate by taking 192,000 pictures of the 80Hz tone. What they taught us was that 1 sample rate was basically 1 picture of that sound. The more samples of that sound, the more accurate it becomes (resolution i guess). So then at 44.1khz & 192khz it doesn't matter, the points from each sample will still be drawn out the same? From what I also understood, that 2 samples should go for 1 frequency to accurately reproduce audio (Nyquist) Which I assume is correct. But then aliasing sounds above 20khz get picked up or whatever, and that's why they added a few khz on top of it, to become 44.1 instead of 40. or really 22.1khz doubled. They said that if there was a 5khz tone, for example, that lasted for 1 second, that means there was 5000 peak to peaks or whatever, in that 1 second to make it a 5khz tone & if you take 192,000 pictures of that 5khz tone, it'll be more accurate than 44,100, saying everything was perfect.

You need to do some reading! :D

Anyway, let me explain it this way. If I tell you how to look at a map to get to my house, and I tell you which streets to turn on, you could trace an accurate path, right? Now if I told you every single footstep where to go, and you traced it on the same map from those directions, would it be any more accurate? No, you would trace the exact same path on the map. That is how 44.1 relates to 192. Once enough information is there to reproduce the signal 100%, everything else is just extra steps. There is a need for higher than 44.1, but that has nothing to do with being able to accurately draw an audio signal from a 44.1khz sample rate.
 
Mindset said:
Why does HD sound better than a CD than?

Because of the inherent flaws with converters.... If converters were perfect, there would be no need for it. However, according to Mr. Lavry, everything after about 60khz is unneeded to make up for said flaws.

edit - and because they are 24 bit!
 
NL5 said:
You need to do some reading! :D

Anyway, let me explain it this way. If I tell you how to look at a map to get to my house, and I tell you which streets to turn on, you could trace an accurate path, right? Now if I told you every single footstep where to go, and you traced it on the same map from those directions, would it be any more accurate? No, you would trace the exact same path on the map. That is how 44.1 relates to 192. Once enough information is there to reproduce the signal 100%, everything else is just extra steps. There is a need for higher than 44.1, but that has nothing to do with being able to accurately draw an audio signal from a 44.1khz sample rate.

Ok I see really there would be no need in higher if it's reproducing the signal at 100% anyways got cha ;) So would 192khz be just stupid uneeded accuracy because at 44.1khz is enough to produce it. I'm still sticking to 48Khz, but I mean, I do agree that there's no need in that high of a resolution, but I would still say it is still more 'accurate' even if I know how to get there lol. Cause then I can know exactly step for step of how YOU walk to your house lol.
 
Mindset said:
Ok I see really there would be no need in higher if it's reproducing the signal at 100% anyways got cha ;) So would 192khz be just stupid uneeded accuracy because at 44.1khz is enough to produce it. I'm still sticking to 48Khz, but I mean, I do agree that there's no need in that high of a resolution, but I would still say it is still more 'accurate' even if I know how to get there lol. Cause then I can know exactly step for step of how YOU walk to your house lol.

LOL - It is no more accurate. Sorry. :D

I actually record at 24/44.1 - when that is the limiting factor to my recordings, I'll look at going to 96khz. :) But, just go listen to Joshua Judges Ruth by Lyle Lovett - it was recorded on late 80's/early nineties converters at 16 bit 44.1 (recorded straight to digital) - fabulous sounding. I did record at 48 to keep the "air' a bit tighter, but I got tired of having to keep switching my converters back and forth........
 
Mindset said:
Ok so let me ask you this, why does high resolution = higher frequencies?
Try thinking of it this way: Frequency - measured in cycles per second - is nothing more that how fast or how rapidly changes happen to the waveform. A 20kHz signal goes through a complete cycle 20,000 times per second.

Lets say that there's a deformation in that waveform that happens on the cycle's initial upswing, the kind of deformation that only a "higher resolution" sample rate could pick up on. As the initial upswing part of a complete waveform is in it's entirety only 1/4th of the entire waveform, that upswig takes place in 1/4th the time of the full wave cycle, meaning the entire upswing takes place in only 1/80,000th of a second.

This means that any such "high resolution" deformation of that wave is occuring at a "resolution" of 80,000 cycles per second, which is the equivalent of saying it is happening at a frequency of 80kHz.

When talking in the samples per second realm, "resolution" simply means slicing into shorter periods of time, which means the ability to respond to higher frequency events. Resolution = frequency response.
Mindset said:
So what you guys are saying is that 1hz, or 1 cycle per second = 1 frequency?? And a sample rate of 1hz = 1 frequency
Not exactly, though you're starting to get on the right track. According to proven mathematical theories such as the Nyquest Theorem and others, in order to accurately reproduce any given frequency, one needs to sample at twice that frequency. So theoretically, based upon just that, in order to reproduce up to 20kHz, one needs to sample at 40kHz minimum. There are some other factors that come in with stuff called aliasing and slew rates of frequency filters and such that I won't go into in detail here, but suffice it for now to say that those factors dictate that teh sample rate go just a bit higher than double the desired frequency. Long story short, the engineers ended up at 44.1kHz as the ideal minimum sample rate to handle up to 20kHz "resolution".

Mindset said:
192khz, it's more lively, than 44.1khz.
As far as your question as to why higher sample rates do sometimes sound better, that is a subject of hot debate amongest even the "experts". There are many factors involved there (including mundane logistical stuff like actual hardware quality), but there are those that believe that humans can "pick up on" some frequencies higher than 20kHz, even if they cann't seem to consciously hear them. The elusive "air" that higher sample rates can allegedly provide (though whether your loudspeakers can actually reproduce them is another question altogether and kind of mucks up the arguement a bit ;) ).

But even those who subscribe to the supersonic "air" theory will tell you - well, the vast majority of them anyway - that there is a limit even to those supersonic frequencies that usually falls well below 40kHz. Meaning that even those frequencies would fall below the capabilities of an 88.2k sample rate. 192k sampling (~90kHz frequency response) is simply overkill, even there.

And this isn't even bringing in factors such as loudspeaker limitations, the fact that the recording chain from microphone to pre-converter isn't designed to accurately - if at all - capture those high frequencies anyway, or the fact that for any given converter, it's a crapshoot of engineering design as to which sample rate selection it actually performs at best. Brand A converter may have excellent 48k sampling but it's 96k stage simply doesn't perform as well because of a design thing. It happens. Not to mention the difference in quality between brands; I'll take an Apogee at 44.1 over a Presonus at 96 any day of the week.

G.
 
What about the argument for higher bandwidths as it allows shallower digital filtering? And how come you (I) can hear a difference between 44.1khz and 96khz?
 
MessianicDreams said:
And how come you (I) can hear a difference between 44.1khz and 96khz?

Because of the inherent limitations of converters. Did you read the thread? We were eliminating the converters shortcomings from the equation. Besides, not all 96hz converters sound better than all 44.1's. There's a lot that goes into the "sound" of a converter. The analog signal path being the biggest thing IMHO.
 
Farview said:
Yea, but if a band came in here and I made their CD sound like something from the 50's, they would ask for their money back.

Not unless they asked for that specific decade. :D ;)

Most of the goodness about the sound of those records is the recording technique, not the medium. There are plenty of examples of crappy sounding audio from every decade. Plenty of 'analog warmth' that will peel the paint off your volvo.

Oh yeah I agree but there is a heck of a lot of good sounding stuff from as early as the 50's and I mean outside of good recording methods, just purely from a sound perspective. I think it greatly depends on what one is trying to capture but I do agree that recording technique and rooms etc ... make a huge difference in the final product.
 
NL5 said:
...not all 96khz converters sound better than all 44.1's. There's a lot that goes into the "sound" of a converter. The analog signal path being the biggest thing IMHO.
That's been my experience also. Higher resolution means better sound quality if everything else is equal, but how often is everything else really equal?
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You mean other than idiotic the RMS Wars, where as the technologically available dynamic range has increased, the actual average dynamic content gets compressed and limited to smaller and smaller levels?

That's a great point. Wasn't the selling point of CD's, for example, the superb dynamic range ? Well, one wouldn't know it from the compressed sh*t they put out today. The CD is a cool medium but it is not used to its advantage and is often abused.

I often wondered, at least when it comes to reissues, why they couldn't just faithfully transfer the tapes to CD, with absolutely no remastering tricks, kinda like the Steve Hoffman Audiophile reissues. The difference is amazing.
 
cjacek said:
I often wondered, at least when it comes to reissues, why they couldn't just faithfully transfer the tapes to CD, with absolutely no remastering tricks,
Because they don't want to. The majority of people in charge of this stuff think that excessive volume is a selling point. that's why it happens in the first place.
 
Mindset said:
That's what I'm learning in physics & audio. I guess they trying to teach us something else.
No, they're just not going into detail. I highly suggest reading through that document provided on the last page, it should help clarify things. I'm guessing your professors said that sampling rate and quantization is analogous to frequency and amplitude (respectively). They probably said that sampling is a "picture" of the amplitude of a wave and the sampling rate is how often the "picture" is taken, and that quantization is the voltage at each sample (analogous to the amplitude of a wave at any specific time). I'm sure they also touched on Nyquist's theorem, oversampling, signal-to-error ratio, and dither, and then moved on. This is basically what it is, but it's not enough to make judgments on. The article goes into depth on how a computer samples a waveform via PCM.
 
cjacek said:
One can't compare analog and digital in the way you have, Tim. That tape from '59 surely had much better resolution and sound stage in comparison to a 16 bit CD, despite it [the CD] having better S/N ratio. Specs mean little in a real world listening environment.

Daniel, one can compare analog and digital in exactly the way I did because the audio comes out as analog in both systems. A signal to noise ratio is still a signal to noise ratio. It's an analog measurement. Soundcards are sold listing signal to noise ratio specs, and if they arent they should be.


Specs such as a CD's 96db s/n may have no effect on real world listening as in the case of Glen's example of a heavily compressed CD track.

OTOH if the spec is the weak link in the chain, such as a 60db s/n when recording wide dynamic music, you can bet you will hear the difference. It will be painfully obvious.

Tim
 
I thought everyone had already settled on bit depth being = resolution. Or should we now say bit depth + frequency response = resolution ? :confused:

At any rate, I'm glad a lot of this hogwash is getting cleared up. A lot of people look at their pointy waveform graphics in their program and figure their digital system is outputting triangle waves or something. Or they make a recording on their little digital home studio and then wonder "Why doesn't my recording sound like the classic stuff that I love and listen to? Aha, it must be the tape!"

And 96k does probably sound a little better to some people than 44.1, assuming there isn't something weird in the converters making the 96k sound junk for some reason. The anti-aliasing filters will often chew into the audio band a little bit at 44.1k . Whats-his-face did a neat little test of this somewhere which showed the small roll-off.

Since pretty much all I record is for the CD format, I just stick with 44.1 . It has been a couple years, but I did a project where a few of the songs were recorded/mixed at 88.2k IIRC, and I didn't notice any extra awesomeness on those tracks compared to the others once they were on a CD. FWIW
 
Reggie said:
And 96k does probably sound a little better to some people than 44.1, assuming there isn't something weird in the converters making the 96k sound junk for some reason. The anti-aliasing filters will often chew into the audio band a little bit at 44.1k . Whats-his-face did a neat little test of this somewhere which showed the small roll-off.

Since pretty much all I record is for the CD format, I just stick with 44.1 . It has been a couple years, but I did a project where a few of the songs were recorded/mixed at 88.2k IIRC, and I didn't notice any extra awesomeness on those tracks compared to the others once they were on a CD. FWIW

Yep, 96k performs better than 44.1 because of the converters limitations (mainly the filtering). But, even that is not THAT big of a difference, as you pointed out. I have pretty good converters, and I will continue to run at 44.1 until that becomes the limiting factor in my recordings (I can only hope! :D )
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
To be more specific, ~44.1k/sec is what's needed to accurately reproduce sound up to about 20kHz (sampling at twice the desired freqiency with some buffer for the anti-aliasing LPFs.) 88.2k/sec will give accurate reproduction up to about 40kHz for the same reason. Since there's nothing but a few bats and maybe a dog or two that can hear or feel anything above that, any higher sample rate than that is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful.

The idea of "higher resolution" really does not apply at that point, because all "higher resolution" means is higher frequency. Period. 192k/sec does not reproduce a 20kHz signal any better or with any more definition or accuracy than 88.2k/sec or even a 48k/sec does. 20kHz is 20kHz. Any "higher resolution" deformations to that 20kHz signal are going to be in the form of higher frequency modulations - i.e. deviations at a higher frequency than the wave that they are deforming. All 192k/sec will give you will be the ability to increase the "resolution" of the system - meaning, simply and only, increasing the frequency response - to about 90kHz or so. There's no point in that; it's extra information wasted on human beings who usually can't hear anything pat 16kHz, and certainly can't even in the best of circumstances feel anything past 40kHz.

G.

So, is 384Khz better? Maybe we need to be at 384 Khz?
 
What about 768?

Or 1536?

I'm holdin out for 1.5GHZ.

And roughly, say, 1 Megabit depth 24-bit? Not enough for me. I need Mega- or Giga- in front of all my digital specs before I'll use it.
 
MCI2424 said:
So, is 384Khz better? Maybe we need to be at 384 Khz?
I think sample rates in the tens of MHz would be perfect. Then we could hear video! :D.

G.
 
Its just like digital art work.

The more you blow up the image and have more pixels to work with the cleaner and better looking you can make the image when its compressed back down to a jpg.

Subtle or not the difference is still better.
 
joswil44 said:
Its just like digital art work.

The more you blow up the image and have more pixels to work with the cleaner and better looking you can make the image when its compressed back down to a jpg.

Subtle or not the difference is still better.
This analogy doesn't hold up and is not applicable to audio. Audio sample rate is not 'resolution', bit depth is resolution. The pixel analogy works when talking about bit depth.

Audio is bandwidth limited. A higher sample rate only allows you to record and store higher frequencies. That's all it does, it is the only thing that sample rate affects. You can argue that going with 88k or 96k will get the low pass filters farther out of the hearing range than with 44.1k or 48k, but 192k is just silly. That's 3 octaves above what anyone can hear, what most microphones can pick up and what most stereos will reproduce.
 
Back
Top