Which set up should I get?

jigfresh

jigfresh

Enjoying life
Hello everyone,

I am new to the whole recording thing. I've played guitar for 25 years or so, was in a band in high school. We put out 3 records, but I never paid a cent of attention to either the home recordings the other guys set up, or at the two studios we recorded in. Really wished I would of now... oh well, I was a real idiot as a young man. :)

In August my daughter was born and I have been playing guitar a LOT since her birth. She likes me playing guitar a lot more than me playing video games. Since I have been playing so much got a new guitar and have been looking into recording my stuff here at home.

I had been using my Boss GT10 multi effects pedal to record with. It has a USB out and I can run it into my laptop, using Audacity. It works pretty well, I just really want to get my amp on tape (or whatever you say now). I have a Fender SuperChamp xd (Combo amp 1-12") with an upgraded speaker and I really love the tones I get from it. I want to record those tones as best I can on a budget.

At this point I already have 2 mic preamp units. I got them on sale for $10 each at guitar center.
Behringer MIC200 Tube ULTRAGAIN Preamp

I've been looking at what kind of interface and mic to get and my mind is spinning. Mostly I want to record the guitar, but I'm sure I'll want to do vocals at some point, and my wife does podcasts, so we'll most likely use the setup for that too I guess. But that's an afterthought.

I enjoy woking on my laptop as it's easy to move (as laptops are) and pretty damn powerful. However, I suppose if I'm going to be using my amp, and mics on stands and stuff like that I won't be moving around much. I bring it up because I have a desktop in my living room where the amp is, the desktop has Firewire. One thing I wondered was about recording in the same room as the amp. Is there a reason I would want to be playing my guitar and doing the button pushing on the computer in one room, while the amp and mics are in another? Or is that just taking things way too far. I have a strong tendency to complicate the hell out of things.


So I was all ready to get this setup, even bought the mics (they can be returned as I haven't even picked them up). Together the interface used and mics new were going to cost me about $230, at the stores they are around $300 together.

Focusrite Scarlett 2i4

MXL 550/551R Studio Microphone Kit


Then I saw this setup for sale where I'm going on vacation tomorrow. Looks like a great deal, just not sure I am going to put it all to use. In the stores the interface is $300, Mic $230, Preamp/EQ/Comp $200 or so, Mic stand $200. He's charging $300 for everything.

Focusrite Saffire Pro 24

Rode NT1-A Mic, Shock Mount, Pop Shield, XLR Cable

ART Pro Channel Tube Preamp/ EQ/ Compressor

Boom Mic Stand

Do you guys thing the $300 deal looks like a good setup for what I'd like to do?

I kinda wish I just had some equipment already so I could stop thinking about it. :)

Thank you for your time.
 
Well, first things first - that second set-up for $300 is definitely the better deal in my eyes!
(granted everything is in good shape)

With that said, even the using a condenser mic (like the Rode) on a guitar amp is perfectly fine, it is a process that could bring up other issues that can be avoided by using a dynamic mic like an SM57 or something of the sort. Issues like volume and "outside" noise etc.
It would be excellent for your wife's podcasting though! And you could take care of those issues with some post-processing in whatever program you're using.
 
Hello J'
Go for the 2i4 and the two mic kit IMO.

Now, there is nothing "wrong" with the Firewire kit except that you need a specific type of chipset, Texas Instruments, in a PC to work with an audio interface. Any other type will surely give problems. Then, FW is dying out so in a year or two's time if you want to upgrade the PC you will have a redundant AI on your hands and of course you cannot use it on the laptop!

In any case that AI is way OTT for your present needs and the extra complications will only serve to slow you down.

As to the "same room syndrome? Well, we most of us have to do that, if miccing up an amp it should not be a problem. The mic will typically be only 50mm from the speaker fret or even touching it therefore the nastiness of the room (they all are!) will not intrude.
Same cannot be said for voice recording. You (she) will need to build some sort of "tent" of blankets or duvets to reduce the room reflections. Pop over to Sound On Sound | Recording Techniques | Audio Technology | Music Production | Computer Music | Video Media and seek out the "Studio SoS" articles and also the Aug 07 treatise on recording electric guitar.

Lastly (for now) what are you going to use to monitor these recordings? Headphones will get you started but you will need some monitor speakers before long.

Dave.
 
Thank you two for your responses. It's much appreciated.

I had read things about Firewire possibly being a bit tricky.

I'm reading through the Guitar Amp recording article. What a treasure of info from amazing talent! Thanks for the tip. That site looks to have a plethora of stuff to look through. :)

Hadn't thought about monitors at all really. I was going to use whatever headphones I had (there are a few pairs around here) or the home stereo. It's an Onkyo receiver with JBL tower speakers and a home made sub with 2-12's. I looked at info real quick about monitors after you asked and learned what they were (finally). I seriously always wondered, thought they were just really good speakers for studio guys to listen to music from. Not that I understand all the details, but now I get that they play the sounds at their 'flatest' to get a what 'true' representation? Whatever the words or how to think about it, I see the difference now.

Is this something I should address sooner than later? The way I look at it, I'm going to be making horrible sounding recordings for a few months, I won't need monitors to hear that. :) But then again, I don't want to waste my time either by getting a way of doing things down only to find out it doesn't work so good on the monitors. blah blah blah, I'll stop now.

Oh, lastly.... I was looking at the 2i4 over the 2i2 as it seems a small jump in cost for the added features/ outputs one gets. However... I don't know that I will ever use the extra outputs. Should I just get a 2i2 and be done with it?

Thanks again. Hope you guys have a good Wednesday

Wish me luck... we're travelling and today is babies first flight!
 
Get some monitors as soon as you can.
There is no reason for your first recordings of a guitar amp to be crap! For sure people tweak about getting the tone "just so" but so long as the amp sounds good and you watch the levels (more on this later) there is no reason not to make a fair fist of the sound grab. Voice work IS trickier, mainly because almost all "domestic" spaces are acoustically poo but decent monitors can only help here. You mentioned a hi-fi system? Useful. Burn some stuff to CD and play it over that and compare it to commercial recordings of the same genre (which is BTW?). Likewise, play the discs in the car...But I am getting ahead of myself!

Two i two or Two i Four? Get the 4 for the MIDI imho. If you have been knocking about with bands for 25 yrs you have surely met MIDI keyboards? You will kick yourself in a years time when you realize what MIDI could do for you.

Now: Audacity, splendid free audio editor prog' but ill suited to recording and building tracks. The Focusrites come with some software (don't know what OTTOMH) but do look at the Steinberg UR22. 2 in, 2 out, MIDI and Cubase LE7 and that is a cut down, but still extremely powerful version of probably the second biggest "pro" recording software after Protools. (I also have to say of course, otherwise Bobbsy will think I am poorly, "Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6". Cubase again and 4 in 4 out+ MIDI)

You will also I am sure be introduced to Reaper and that is an excellent recording software. Cheap and a very low hit on the hard drive. Personally I am so wedded to Samplitude (dldd the demo. of ProX, tis gut ya?) that I hardly ever use anything else but then my "musician", son, has just gone back to France and I am now just a lowley, lonely technician once more!

Ooops! Wallowing and nearly forgot! Whatever you get in hard and software there is a standard to follow re levels in the PC. You need to record using 24bits and 44.1kHz (Other sample rate devotees, butt out for now, we are K.I.S.Sir.ing atmo). The level scale in audio software "stops" at 0dB(Full Scale it is called) and you want the average level, the "meat" if you like, to be hitting around -18dBFS, even a bit lower if you like and VERY loud peaks never go past -8. -6 absolutely max.

Rock on,
Dave.
 
Can't really add anything about the interface, except that I bought a UR22 for a friend who is just starting out in recording and he's delighted with it. And do indeed get some monitors. Using 'phones will only ensure that you do things over again, whether it be tracking or mixing. Congratulations on your daughter. The best kind of inspiration!
 
bongoboy said:
Can't really add anything about the interface, except that I bought a UR22 for a friend who is just starting out in recording and he's delighted with it. And do indeed get some monitors. Using 'phones will only ensure that you do things over again, whether it be tracking or mixing. Congratulations on your daughter. The best kind of inspiration!
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More good reccy for the UR22. I will readily admit to not trying one personally (were I still working I would certainly have bought one by now) but the AI got an excellent review in SoS and I have yet to read a negative report.

The Focusrites on the other hand, whilst good I am sure, HAVE attracted some criticisms, poor latency/driver issues and at least one report of lack of headroom in the high Z input. Of course, I accept that in the vast melting pot that is The Web, some adverse comments will surface about almost anything, even my KA6 has had at least one bad report (tho', it seems more due to a power shy usb port than the AI?).

Steinberg electronics has always been first class but in the past somewhat overpriced and at least two products lacked MIDI! This is penny pinching and daft, especially from the company that practically INVENTED the MIDI software sequencer! Then again, if Steinberg/Yamaha can't produce a good, top value AI Who TF could?
They have.

Dave.
 
I've owned a UR22 but sold.
Nothing was wrong with it, but it was a little bulkier than my Komplete Audio 6.
I also like that the KA6 has 4in and 4out so that beyond the obvious use of multiple monitoring setups and multiple inputs to record I can get creative with my sends and returns.
 
kidkage said:
I've owned a UR22 but sold.
Nothing was wrong with it, but it was a little bulkier than my Komplete Audio 6.
I also like that the KA6 has 4in and 4out so that beyond the obvious use of multiple monitoring setups and multiple inputs to record I can get creative with my sends and returns.
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Oooo! I would have had that! Are you UK?
4 in 4 out KA6? Yes, one of the reasons I bought mine was to get 4 tracks to and from a Teac A3440 OR machine in and out of a PC for Son who loves the sound of tape. Then he buggered off to France!

No matter, it has since done sterling service fed with a CO-I pair on a variety of bands at a local jam night.
 
I love your guys' energy! Getting me all pumped up and excited about my own recording adventures to come. I just love forums like this... bunch of like minded people into the same things having a blast with each other.

I've definitely got some reading to do to figure out what a lot of things mean, but I'm really excited. I feel like I know what to read about now, before I didn't really even know where to start.

It's a really funny feeling beginning all this, as I began another big project a few years ago. I keep a garden and joined a forum like this (for the garden). At first I was a total noob with silly questions, now I help the other noobs out. Now I'm asking the silly questions again, looking bright eyed toward the future.

It's quirky, but I like the looks of things, and I really don't like the look of the UR22, however I dig the KA6. There's a guy selling one for $150 back home. :) Seems a slightly better unit from my naive eyes vs the 2i4.

Thanks again, I'm going to catch up a little more. Yesterday was a travel day for me. Not sure what we were thinking leaving Southern california to come to the Freezing east coast? We should have just flown the grandparents out to see us. ha

EDIT: I do ROCK music. More on the lighter side, meaning not heavy. I love John Frusciante I was in a punk band in my late teens:

This is me (well me and 3 other guys playing bass, rhythm, and drums)
 
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"It's quirky, but I like the looks of things, and I really don't like the look of the UR22, however I dig the KA6. There's a guy selling one for $150 back home. Seems a slightly better unit from my naive eyes vs the 2i4."

Ha! Same here. There is a rake of interfaces that band wagon on the original RME "Babyface" (how VERY now!) . Stonkingly good electronics and superb drivers and software by every account but I just can't bring myself to LIKE it! I want my electronics kit to look the part, not something from ToyRus! But then I am a very old 'tronics tekk! By the same token I GAVE UP playing music pretty well 30 years before punk came about and so am much more Beatles and Bach than Johnny Rotten.

Get that KA6! The stumbling block would be the software. If the guy has registered and activated Cubase you won't be able to use it I don't think. Steinberg and/or Native Inst' MIGHT play ball but don't hold yer breath! Still, you could just buy Cubase Le7 and dikker with the guy over the price? But, bright side, he may not have even cracked the seal or have got jiggered trying to register, it can be a PITA. Put it this way, for $150 (that's what 100quidish?) with NO software I would have his arm off, and I already got one!

Dave.
 
Yep, about 100 quid. I'll email him today.

And I should qualify 'punk'. I don't care much for 'real punk'.... I'm more into the power pop stuff. Sum41, Rancid, Bad Religion, etc. I've never really understood the sex pistols and the like. Doesn't seem very musical to me. I like harmonies.
 
Hi everyone. I'm on vacay near Philly. Jeez it's cold out here. Anyways, I've made some decisions. The KA6 sells for $200 new on amazon and we have prime, so free shipping. :) I'm gonna get that so I get the software and a shiny new unit.

My question for you guys is what kind of cables I'm going to need. I drew a picture... I don't even know if the components are connected correctly in it. Only think I'm pretty sure of is that I need XLR cables to go from the Mic to the Pre-amp... the rest I'm not sure. Oh, I'm pretty certain on the USB too. :)

Another question... I am picking up that shorter cables are 'better' as they don't pick up as much extra noise/ sound. Is that correct thinking? And if so, so I want to keep cables as short as possible (to a degree)? And if so... which cable is ok to be long? As I'm guessing not everything will be within a couple feet of the next component.

The monitors are they going to plug into the AI, or the computer?

I am looking around for monitors... thinking maybe KRK Rokkit 5's. They look to be pretty good for being on the cheaper end. I'm guessing the lower end M Audio stuff isn't that good... like the AV20 or AV40... correct me if I'm wrong.

There's definitely more thoughts/ questions in my head, but that's all I can think about right now.

I really appreciate the input. Thanks.

Cables.jpg
 
Well, from what I remember from a few years ago when I was first a frequent visitor here - the AV40s were really popular amongst users here.
I have a pair of KRK Rokit 6's that I use to use before I upgraded and really liked them. They taught me how to effectively monitor, but I'm not entirely sure that the type of monitors I got mattered in that regard since monitors are such a personal preference thing. What's important is learned your system - the ultimate goal with monitoring is to achieve mixes that translate just the way you want to. You can achieve that by "learning" your monitors by using reference material and the checking your mixes on other system and learning your system translates.
Truthfully, that can be achieved with any monitoring setup if the person knows they're system and what they're doing with it, but good monitors make it easier :D

As far as the KA6 goes - you won't actually have to use external pre-amps unless you want to since the unit has two built in (and they're excellent!). But if you do want to use them be sure to use the inputs on the back instead of plugging the pre-amps into the preamps :p

Cables:
Personally I only worry about cable length when it comes to the actual sound output and not so much the instrument/mic aspect. For instance - I don't care if my guitar/mic cables are 10' or 25', but I do try to keep the cables between amps and speakers or to monitors no more than 10' (btw the monitors will be plugged in from the interface). And on gear like preamps and stuff I've never had a reason to go with more than 5'.
But don't take my word on it. I'm not sure if it "right" or not.
 
Appreciate the input no matter. Thanks my friend. I had wondered about the preamp to preamp thing. Well if I don't have anything to do with the extra preamps I got I can use them as real pretty paperweights. :)

Thanks a bunch.

I'm really excited to get everything and start figuring it all out. I'm concerned with the tip of the iceberg. Looking forward to get the what's underwater. (lol really lame analogy) Hahaha
 
KRK Rokit 5 & Rokit 8
That gives a good reccy to the Rocket5s. Cables? You should use balanced jack (TRS) to XLR from AI to monitors. Length will matter not, anything under 100mtrs is fine!

Yes, the preamps are not needed on the KA6 but don't waste them? Feed them into the two spare line inputs. This would give you the possibility of extra mics/positions on the cab and/or "room" mics for a bit of atmo'. Being on separate tracks you could mix in just as much as you wanted.

Dave.
 
Yay for more help. Cheers Dave.

Any advice on buying used monitors? Meaning is there a way I can test the things, or something I should look for?

And I been through Northampton. My mate lives outside Kettering. Beautiful in the east midlands (at least I think so).

So if I got a 3rd mic... That would have an XLR going to one of the spare preamps... then would I use an instrument cable from the preamp going into the back of the AI? ... I'm gonna go read some. I need to understand some of this. Balanced, unbalanced....

Do these look ok for the cables from the AI to the monitors:
Amazon.com: Hosa Cable STX105M 1/4 TRS to XLR Male Cable - 5 Foot: Musical Instruments

And these for the mic to the AI:
Amazon.com: Mr. Dj CXMXF12 12-Feet XLR Male to XLR Female Professional Dj Speaker Cable: Musical Instruments

Off to go read some so I'm not so ignorant. It's all good to ask questions, but it's not your guys' job to tell me EVERYTHING. :) I do appreciate anything you do help with.

EDIT: I won a t shirt on facebook one time from a company called Kimber Kable. I just looked them up. HOLY COW!!!! I mean I knew things can get expensive in high end audio, but literally had no idea you could spend $2,000 for a 3 meter xlr cable. A half meter is 'only' $400.

http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Orchid
 
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jigfresh said:
Kidkage, I checked your facebook page. :) Are you a Sikh? I'm into Sikhism, it's why I ask.
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Cool! You must've seen the pictures of my cousins wedding?

Yeah, I'm a guy with faith, but not a hardcore practicer of any religion.
I think if I had to identify with any religion I think it would be Sikhism though.
See, I live in and was raised in a Sikh household (with pictures and other various artifacts everywhere), but I was born and raised in 'the Bible belt' and spent my entire life at a Christian school. (My parents definitely wanted me to have faith in something bigger than me!)
But, I guess that's kind of what's good about Sikhism - it's a religion where tolerance and acceptance is important. So it doesn't discriminate against other religions.
But yeah - I've certainly spent more time at Gurudwaras than I have at churches (so many denominations that seem to hate each other!)
 
On the audio topic -
you've got the pre-amp into the interface right.

are you in the states?
sweetwater is a great place to buy cables and stuff.
I can set you up with my sales engineer if needed.
 
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