I got a Zoom R20, should I sell it and get a Focusrite ai?

[longtail]

I came from a line of Boss stand alone digital recorders and recently got a Zoom R20 to replace my old br 1600.
The problem, is I don't like the Zoom's workflow as a standalone, the faders catch feature is glitchy and it's just not on the fly enough for me.
So I'm using it as an audio interface with Reaper and am experiencing a much better workflow.
Should I sell the Zoom and get a simple Focusrite?
Would the Zoom come in handy for other features later on?
Also, hoping for tips on getting a louder sound without clipping, when I play metal I like a high volume for inspiration. I have the headphone volume on max. It's close, but in the future I'll want it higher for certain styles. Currently it's just fine for pop and rock.
You can check out my first post if you wanna see my workflow.

 

[Papanate]

First = headphones on Max? No way would I ever do that - You are going to have hearing aids shortly - second how are you returning the audio to your headphones?
- Do you ever record more than two people at a time - how about drums? - or drums and bass? What are the Zoom R20 Sample and Bit rates - can you change them?
What kind of Focusrite are you thinking of buying?

 

[longtail]

First = headphones on Max? No way would I ever do that - You are going to have hearing aids shortly - second how are you returning the audio to your headphones?
- Do you ever record more than two people at a time - how about drums? - or drums and bass? What are the Zoom R20 Sample and Bit rates - can you change them?
What kind of Focusrite are you thinking of buying?

It's not too loud, I'm trying to figure out how to get a louder playing level. My headphones are plugged in to the Zoom. When I use the Zoom the headphones don't work on my laptop. My first post shows my workflow, no I just record me. I use ezdrummer. I'm not sure about the last few questions, could you tell me more?

 

[TalismanRich]

The R20 is 44.1k - 16 or 24bit. I was a bit surprised, it's a step back from the R24 which was 44.1 or 48K / 16 or 24 bit. Hard to believe since the R24 is over 15 yrs old.

What do you mean by "the faders catch feature is glitchy and it's just not on the fly enough for me."?

As for just getting a Focusrite, that depends on how many channels you need at once. I've used my R24 with all 8 channels at once for mobile recording. At home, I only use 2 at once. I also have a Tascam 16x08 with 8 mic inputs if I need it. I always thought the recording on the R24 was straightfoward, but don't have a clue as to the changes they made with the R20. I prefer buttons to touch screens, so it probably wouldn't be my best choice.

 

[longtail]

The R20 is 44.1k - 16 or 24bit. I was a bit surprised, it's a step back from the R24 which was 44.1 or 48K / 16 or 24 bit. Hard to believe since the R24 is over 15 yrs old.

What do you mean by "the faders catch feature is glitchy and it's just not on the fly enough for me."?

As for just getting a Focusrite, that depends on how many channels you need at once. I've used my R24 with all 8 channels at once for mobile recording. At home, I only use 2 at once. I also have a Tascam 16x08 with 8 mic inputs if I need it. I always thought the recording on the R24 was straightfoward, but don't have a clue as to the changes they made with the R20. I prefer buttons to touch screens, so it probably wouldn't be my best choice.

Considering my equipment in my first post in my profile mentioning the laptop I use, would I notice any difference if I switched to a 2 channel Focusrite? I just need record electric guitar plugged in, and need stereo for my rackmount effects.
The zoom is glitchy and doesn't do what it's suppose to do. They have a catch feature that doesn't sync well. My zoom has the latest firmware.
I figured I would have saved a lot of money since the foucusrite is much cheaper.

 

[longtail]

From my first post:
"I play electric guitar through an amp modeler and a Lexicon rackmount effects, with audio technica m40x headphones.
I only play through headphones.
I record this setup with a boss br 1600. No effects on the boss recorder.
Stereo for Lexicon effects.

Then I have a laptop yoga 7 15itl5 for making/transferring EZDrummer beats.
Reaper for editing boss br tracks, usually volume, panning and low pass filter. Structuring songs."

 

[ecc83]

I was very surprised to find the R20 only did 44.1kHz, even yer boggy Behringers have 44.1/48kHz! Still, 44.1 is fine, better than CD if 24 bits after all but might be an issue with video?

Yes, the headphone output level is pretty feeble at just o ver 1 V rms. Probably loud enough for the majority of cans/users but higher impedance types might be a struggle. Solution, Behrry HA400 $30? As said mind your HEARING!

Like others I still do not know what "glitchy faders" means but suspect it might be tied up with sample rates. latency, CPU usage or/and drivers? If so I doubt another AI will be any better save an RME! That said IF OP wants go for another interface then I have to strongly suggest the MOTU M4. Drivers are close to RME in stability and low latency and the general audio quality very high indeed. The M4 gives two extra line ins so the R20 can feed it to give 4 discrete tracks (or a mix of the 8?)

Personally I would not sell the R20, get Jack S for it.


Dave.

 

[longtail]

I was very surprised to find the R20 only did 44.1kHz, even yer boggy Behringers have 44.1/48kHz! Still, 44.1 is fine, better than CD if 24 bits after all but might be an issue with video?

Yes, the headphone output level is pretty feeble at just o ver 1 V rms. Probably loud enough for the majority of cans/users but higher impedance types might be a struggle. Solution, Behrry HA400 $30? As said mind your HEARING!

Like others I still do not know what "glitchy faders" means but suspect it might be tied up with sample rates. latency, CPU usage or/and drivers? If so I doubt another AI will be any better save an RME! That said IF OP wants go for another interface then I have to strongly suggest the MOTU M4. Drivers are close to RME in stability and low latency and the general audio quality very high indeed. The M4 gives two extra line ins so the R20 can feed it to give 4 discrete tracks (or a mix of the 8?)

Personally I would not sell the R20, get Jack S for it.


Dave.

Thanks for replying. I definitely know what is too loud for hearing, just looking for tips. Maybe panning and monitoring tips?
As for the faders, I meant in stand alone mode. You can see in youtube videos that the faders have to sync in order to latch on, and they latch off randomly. Again, in stand alone mode.
I just did a long recording session in audio interface mode with Reaper and am getting the hang on things.
One thing I noticed, I will eventually want the latency to improve, because I like to shred like Malmsteen style solos. I can heard the delay.
Considering I've provided the laptop I use, is it mostly the laptop that's effecting latency or the interface?

 

[DM60]

For your latency issue, if you haven't done so, I checked and the Zoom has a Windows audio driver. It is ASIO, so when tracking in Reaper, make sure you use the ASIO driver for the device and set it to the lowest buffer. If it starts to glitch, make noise, increase the buffer until it stops. I suggest not using the Windows driver. This will help when monitoring.

You might want to do a search if you need more information on setting it up.

 

[ecc83]

Re latency. BIG subject and very complex sometimes but, it is rare for a modern PC* to be the source of problems UNLESS it is badly configured. By that I mean there are several settings than need to be right so that the ma chine is not "distracted" from the task of running the drivers. These settings you will find on Google but I shall also have a shufty for thee.
But, the most common cause of latency/glitching issues is the AI, notably the ASIO drivers. Top of the tree are RME but MOTU are very good and I have a Native Instruments KA6 which is no slouch. No experience of Focusrite but I cannot see them being "bad"!

*My son and I both have older, W10 Lenovos and get no problems. I can run my T510 down at 64 samples with my M4.

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

I agree that the PC itself is rarely the issue these days. Latency starts with the USB protocol. USB uses a polling system, so it stores data and then grabs that from the device on a regular basis. Using 128 sample buffers, the absolute minimum delay is 2.9mS in and 2.9mS out, so you're already at 5.8mS. You can calculate it (buffer/bit rate). 128/44100 is .0029 seconds. I typically use 64 buffer at 88.2k with my interface.

The ASIO driver itself can add a bit of latency. There will be a bit of delay from the DAW, but usually not much unless you are using plugins which can be quite CPU intensive. The more plugins running, the longer the processing time, so that adds up. Poorly written plugins can be a problem. In cases like that, you can often freeze a track that has already been recorded, to remove that processing hit.

If you are modifying all your sound before going in to the input, using an interface's direct monitoring function can remove any delay.

A Motu M2 or M4 would probably be a good choice. I've read that the drivers are very solid. Going up to RME will be costly.... the Babyface interface is roughly 4x the cost of a Motu M4. Focusrite interfaces are pretty solid as well. You could also look at something like the UA Volt 276

Don't be scared by people complaining about 10mS delay. If you stand 10ft from your amp and play, you are hearing 10mS of delay. Sound travels at about 1ft/mS. Years ago (before anyone had to deal with latency) I used to stand about 15ft or more from my amp on stage. I had a 20ft cord going to my wah pedal and another 10 or 15ft to my guitar so I could move around. It never caused me a problem.

 

[longtail]

Re latency. BIG subject and very complex sometimes but, it is rare for a modern PC* to be the source of problems UNLESS it is badly configured. By that I mean there are several settings than need to be right so that the ma chine is not "distracted" from the task of running the drivers. These settings you will find on Google but I shall also have a shufty for thee.
But, the most common cause of latency/glitching issues is the AI, notably the ASIO drivers. Top of the tree are RME but MOTU are very good and I have a Native Instruments KA6 which is no slouch. No experience of Focusrite but I cannot see them being "bad"!

*My son and I both have older, W10 Lenovos and get no problems. I can run my T510 down at 64 samples with my M4.

Dave.

I’m using the ASIO labeled ZoomR20 so it’s the interface’s driver. I changed the rate to 64 and it improved. Is it really about finding a number that matches or the smallest number?
I was put off using an audio interface for years because people always recommended me a $2000 plus desktop and a $1000 interface so I had no clue what was actually lacking. Then I started hearing stories of people running Reaper on super old laptops and felt misled!

 

[longtail]

I agree that the PC itself is rarely the issue these days. Latency starts with the USB protocol. USB uses a polling system, so it stores data and then grabs that from the device on a regular basis. Using 128 sample buffers, the absolute minimum delay is 2.9mS in and 2.9mS out, so you're already at 5.8mS. You can calculate it (buffer/bit rate). 128/44100 is .0029 seconds. I typically use 64 buffer at 88.2k with my interface.

The ASIO driver itself can add a bit of latency. There will be a bit of delay from the DAW, but usually not much unless you are using plugins which can be quite CPU intensive. The more plugins running, the longer the processing time, so that adds up. Poorly written plugins can be a problem. In cases like that, you can often freeze a track that has already been recorded, to remove that processing hit.

If you are modifying all your sound before going in to the input, using an interface's direct monitoring function can remove any delay.

A Motu M2 or M4 would probably be a good choice. I've read that the drivers are very solid. Going up to RME will be costly.... the Babyface interface is roughly 4x the cost of a Motu M4. Focusrite interfaces are pretty solid as well. You could also look at something like the UA Volt 276

Don't be scared by people complaining about 10mS delay. If you stand 10ft from your amp and play, you are hearing 10mS of delay. Sound travels at about 1ft/mS. Years ago (before anyone had to deal with latency) I used to stand about 15ft or more from my amp on stage. I had a 20ft cord going to my wah pedal and another 10 or 15ft to my guitar so I could move around. It never caused me a problem.

This reminds me, when I turn the Zoom’s direct monitoring on then the signal doesn’t sound right, I don’t know why.
Back to the original question, would it be wise to put the Zoom up for sale? I don’t have any other funding for more gear and don’t need any other features that I can think of.

 

[longtail]

So important detail: when I turn the Zoom's direct monitoring on, my Lexicon's stereo delay doesn't sound right. It's mono.
So I have to have Reaper's monitoring on for my stereo effects to sound right.
Any insight?
Edit also When I but the Zoom in Stereo Mix mode there is no sound.

 

[DM60]

This reminds me, when I turn the Zoom’s direct monitoring on then the signal doesn’t sound right, I don’t know why.
Back to the original question, would it be wise to put the Zoom up for sale? I don’t have any other funding for more gear and don’t need any other features that I can think of.

I'm not sure what you gain at our level. If you can get it to work for your recording needs, I say stay with what you have and make music. At our level, perfect is really hard and very expensive. I would suggest, once you get the interface flow worked out, you start looking at spaces that sound good. Not for mixing but recording. Live rooms are under rated, but very important. That is where I would focus. When you are better, then start thinking of getting new equipment. By then, you will know why you want it.

 

[TalismanRich]

I can't explain the direct monitoring sound change except that it may be feeding the sample back as mono. It should just be a loopback, no changes. The recording should still end up correctly.

You would have to balance what you can get for the Zoom on the used market vs what an interface costs. Looking on Ebay, it seems that $300-350 is the going rate for used R20s. Changing to an decent audio interface would probably be roughly and even swap.

 

[longtail]

I fixed a few issues. I turned off monitoring on reaper.
For zoom's stereo mix mode to work you need to press the record buttons on the zoom, weird to me half an hour to figure that out, no clue why they made it like that, multitrack mode works instantly.