Which mic to buy?

[Harvey Gerst]

Harvey,

My mission remains unchanged. Trying to keep things elegantly simple. It was looking like I would be frustrated and disappointed trying to record at home. I would prefer to work at home. If I have/had to work away I was going to try to borrow a school auditorium. I have read and heard that a violin needs open air. I can't argue the point but it seems to make sense.

It makes sense if you have a great concert hall to record in, and you're a veteran at recording. If not, a simple, relatively non-reflective space will work just fine, and you can always add a little reverb later. An empty school auditorium can be a recording nightmare; so can a full school auditorium.

The Guitar Center stated that the Audio Buddy has phantom power. It comes in tomorrow so I'll see. Or did you mean it has <48 volts?

Reg[/QUOTE]
It has less voltage than its claimed 48 volt output. No big deal for use with the Behringer ECM8000, but it will "change" the sound of the Oktava and the MXL603.

Again, I ask, "What's the purpose of the recording?". Is this going to be an on-going audio log of her progress as a musician, or is it a one-time recording? What are you going to do with it after it's recorded?

 

[Richard Monroe]

DJL's concern (I don't doubt, among others), is that the Audio Buddy, the cheapest preamp on Earth that actually works somewhat, has been measured and and the voltage of rhe phantom power it puts out is almost always less than the nominal 48v it claims. That said, a lot of the jury-rigged Russian equipment the MC012 was designed to work with is no better, and possibly worse. Different mics are more or less picky about varying phantom power supplies.
I have actually used the MC012 with an audio buddy, and it should work. The Oktava will perform with far less than 48v. I used it with a Behringer mixer that puts out only 18v nominal. While there is a potential for signal degradation, it usually just means you lose some headroom, which is an issue with very loud signals, far less with a solo violin.
Lastly, a school auditorium is often an echo chamber from hell, not a good recording space. You might like the natural reverb or ambience of the room, but some rudimentary treatment of some space at home (Harvey's blankets) may very well produce better results anyway. Keep up the good work. You are asking all the right questions.-Richie

 

[afinepoint]

Reg

The store wasn't that thrilled with the Audio Buddy either however since it was one of the options mentioned here and given the availability at hand and my budget we went with it. I mean $45 won't kill me. I've wasted more in my lifetime. I hope to try the other preamps. Getting them from Harvey will allow me to pick the best of the group vice stopping whenever my time, patience and budget dictate. Or worse by overcompensating and buying something high dollar just "to be sure" I get what I need. I was amazed at the equipment that filled the store. Five hundred, one thousand, three thousand plus amplifiers, fifteen hundred dollar microphones, mixers, power supplies, reverb units. I agree with Harvey if you have it you can spend big time, but this is true for any hobby or activity. The limit is your wallet and level of perfection desired.

I will put the other Octava on hold and go with the omni capsule in the one I have. A bedroom I finished off years ago is very quiet due to the abundant fiberglass I put in the interior as well as exterior walls and the thick carpeting. I may try that room first just to better "hear" the equipment.

A violin has haunting and beautiful tones that may be enhanced by openness or killed by excessive and unwanted echoing. My daughter is now reaching some of those tones. She is getting very good. I listen to a lot of classic music and it's eerie at times as I wonder "when did they added the violin to that piece?" and then realize it is her in the next room blending in with the masters.

Reg

 

[DJL]

afinepoint, you haven't answered Harvey's question.

Again, I ask, "What's the purpose of the recording?". Is this going to be an on-going audio log of her progress as a musician, or is it a one-time recording? What are you going to do with it after it's recorded?

 

[afinepoint]

An ongoing log of her progress might be one way of looking at it. One day she will be gone. I want to do the best job I can (afford) to capture this part of her. I don't want it to be because my lacking that something was missed or messed up. I don't expect professional results but I do expect an accurate reproduction of what I hear. I don't see that as a contradiction. It will just take time. It is the drive for perfection that will get me as close as possible. The best job would involve a concert hall, professional engineering, expensive equipment and so on. Although I wish it that is not my goal. That is for her to achieve should she make it to that level of talent.

To give better insight into myself here are two of my troublesome personality traits; stubborness and perfectionism. I try to counter that by setting reasonable goals and being happy with what I achieve. I don't have forever and perfectionism can waste as much time as procrastination.

I hope to be able to somehow get the music on CD to better preserve it. I'll figure out how when I get there. Tape has its shelf life and not too many out there own open reel recorders anymore – making it hard to share. It would be nice to produce CDs for the family. For instance a holiday CD and so forth. But mainly I just want to capture her talent for myself.

I set up the Octava this evening and experimented. The Audio Buddy is rather simple and straightforward.
The clarity and sensitivity of the microphone was impressive. You guys are right. Placement and sound deadening will be critical. It would be a shorter list to name what the Octava didn't pick up.

One problem I need to fix is getting the one channel input onto both tracks of the tape. I assume some sort of Y cable can fix that.

Thanks again for the good advice and continued patience. I work this weekend but should be back at it next week.

Reg

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Yes, but only use a "Y" cable on the output of the Audio Buddy to go to both tracks of your recorder. Actually, I would record her to a single channel in mono, which would be even better (since head alignment on the tape deck may be questionable), then use a stereo reverb to add back some ambience during mixdown. Record her at 15 ips, which is the best speed on the 1500.

Using the method that I outlined in an earlier post (with VERY careful attention to mic placement), can result in absolutely stunning recordings of her playing, more than suitable enough to make CDs for friends and family.

The Behringer ECM8000 will be a bit more accurate than your current setup, but a little noisier. The MXL 603 will be slightly brighter than the Oktava.

 

[Richard Monroe]

You're getting there Finepoint. Personally I believe that the best way to get the signal to the other channel is to use 2 Oktavas, and read up on stereo mic'ing trchniques. What the hell? You've got a 2 channel preamp, and the MC012 isn't a particularly expensive mic. Stereo imaging can create a more accurate picture of the sound anyway (in some ways). You can use coincedent or spaced, or ORTF or other techniques. Of course, you are now beginning to grok the reality of the room's input into the audio record, which is as important as the mic, the preamp, and the recorder. As you've already discovered, there are a hell of a lot of mic and preamp choices out there, and they range in price from dirt cheap to OhmyGod.
That's a tremendous advantage we have now. There is better gear available for less money than there used to be. Recording at home allows you the time to play around with mic placement and settings more than is possible in a remote location or a pro studio, due to time and financial considerations. The Oktavas are a perfectly good choice for strings, but I believe that two are more versatile than one. In time, I forsee that you will want a better 2 channel preamp, but the Audiobuddy is a perfectly good learning tool.
Here's something to consider, though- if you see this as a project with a set fixed goal, just go to a good studio and pay to have it done well. It's not that expensive, really. But- if you want to apply that stubborness and perfectionism (ideal traits for a home recorder), pick the room that will be dedicated to this addictive and rewarding hobby, and begin modifying it.
It's just as Harvey said. If you want to find the right path, it helps to know what the destination is. Quality gear, technique, and experience work hand in hand. As my experience has grown, and my technique improved, I have begun to select some gear that will last a lifetime, and yes that includes some Oktavas, and an Audiobuddy. It also includes some Neumanns and an Avalon. First, learn to use some Oktavas and an Audiobuddy, but be forewarned that the path you are on leads to even more difficult choices, and a few sacrifices. Best of luck. Please post up some of your daughter's playing when the technology becomes available.-Richie

 

[afinepoint]

"Best of luck. Please post up some of your daughter's playing when the technology becomes available.-Richie"


Thank you. I have already considered it.

Reg

 

[afinepoint]

All of the mic's are finally in. I will be doing a setup and then trial recordings around the house over the next few days/weeks. The recording software and hardware are installed on the computer and tested.

Hey Harvey I'll be in touch re the equipment. Say about five weeks?

Reg

 

[Harvey Gerst]

All of the mic's are finally in. I will be doing a setup and then trial recordings around the house over the next few days/weeks. The recording software and hardware are installed on the computer and tested.

Hey Harvey I'll be in touch re the equipment. Say about five weeks?

Reg

That'll be fine.

 

[afinepoint]

Here's a quick update of the grand experiment.

The Oktavas are more difficult to use than the AT822. I can see more work in placement and sound/echo manipulation will be required with them. The sound is noticable harsher but probably more accurate. I have tried them in pair with the cardioid pattern capsules. I like the clarity but the sharpness needs a little smoothing over- especially for violin. They hear everything. I would like to try one close up to pick up the instrument and another farther away but I don't know how to mix the two tracks without additional equipment.

The Audio Tech was warmer in tone and simpler to set up. I have only tried the microphone's flat setting thus far. For some reason the gain adjusts on the Audio Buddy work better/smoother with the AT. ???? In a pinch I would default to this micropnone. At least until I better learn to use the Oktavas.

The test recordings sound well. I used the main stereo speakers and classical CD's to get the rough setup, test the tape, recorder etc. I and my wife were impressed by the accuracy of the sound from the microphones. This is going to work.

Here's one for the floor. Is there a best way for using the mic input knobs on the recorder along with the gains on the preamp? Use them together? Position one leave it alone and adjust the other?

Once I finalize the room I can see I will want/need an instrument rack, dedicated cable raceways . . . Here we go.

Reg

 

[afinepoint]

Harvey:

You wrote:

*********************************************************
I'm gonna make this really simple for ya, afinepoint. Send me your address, and I'll loan you a DMP3 preamp, a VTB-1 preamp, a Behringer ECM8000, and an MXL 603 for a few weeks. Try them all, and then, you tell the group which mic and preamp worked best for you. All it'll cost you is airmail shipping both ways, which should be cheap.

That way, you can decide what works best for your situation without having to rely on anybody's opinion.

**********************************************************

I sent you an email via this site a week or so ago but you may have not received it. I am ready when you are. And again, thank you.

Reg

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Harvey:

You wrote:

*********************************************************
I'm gonna make this really simple for ya, afinepoint. Send me your address, and I'll loan you a DMP3 preamp, a VTB-1 preamp, a Behringer ECM8000, and an MXL 603 for a few weeks. Try them all, and then, you tell the group which mic and preamp worked best for you. All it'll cost you is airmail shipping both ways, which should be cheap.

That way, you can decide what works best for your situation without having to rely on anybody's opinion.

**********************************************************

I sent you an email via this site a week or so ago but you may have not received it. I am ready when you are. And again, thank you.

Reg

Email me at: hargerst@airmail.net with your address and stuff, and I'll get it out to you ASAP.

 

[junplugged]

Oktava MK012 w/ an omni capsule? I guess I got the wrong model? Mine has a cardiod capsule, and a -10 dB thing to go before it. My modle no. is MK012-01. GC for $100. I guess I got caught off guard for that one?

 

[afinepoint]

An update.

Things have been going well. I am still tweaking on the placement of the microphones but I have it fairly close. I have suffered a recent setback as a family member ran over the AT-822's cord with the power head of the vacuum. Chewed the insulation right off. No big problem as I have to put things aside for the next month due to work.

But: So far I prefer the AT due to softer sound and easier placement. The Oktava's are very accurate but I would like to be able to use the second one for picking up echo and that will require more equipment that I am not ready to spring for just yet. The AudioBuddy is doing OK but I wish I had greater control over the signals. There is definitely a stopping point on the gain that jumps up without warning. That is when adusting up I find : a little more, a little more then WHAM loud distortion.

Heres a problem maybe someone can answer. I am recording at 15 ips - I have to. The reason is that at 7 1/2 there is a noticable high pitch sound mainly in the right channel. I have tried altering the position of cables, microphone placement, input levels, and tape settings but can not eliminate it. The tape I am using is Quantegy 457 or 456 - I have to look it up and the heads were demagnitized. I want to keep the tape moving at the higher speeds for good frequency response. The open reel is a Technics 1500US.

Sincerely,

Reg

 

[VatoLoco595]

Have you found your solution to record your daughters violin?
I have recently began the same search to record into my Daughters new computer via a TASCAM Midi device.
Let me know what you find. Thanks
VatoLoco595

 

[afinepoint]

Vato,

Yes I am recording via a AudioBuddy onto a Technics 1500US open reel. The microphones are an AudioTech AT822 and Octavas.

The sound is better than I had expected but certainly not concert hall quality.

What is really needed is a good sound room, better pre-amps, mixing equipment and experience.

I had hoped to get equipment on loan with which to experiment but that has not panned out.

Good luck to you.

Reg