Which mic to buy?

[Cloneboy Studio]

The best bet is to spend a while learning mic placement, and how to best acoustically get your room in shape. OR make use of her school's facilities like the band practice room or possibly auditorium for recording. If you don't have a lot of money to record, you have to have a lot of TIME and KNOWLEDGE to pull off something decent. Best step is patience.

 

[afinepoint]

I spent time in the Guitar Center today. FYI Richard the Oktava MC012 has gone the way of the dinosaurs. I would like one but if there are any problems after 14 days all I will have is/are Russian paperweights. I may go with one of the other suggestions. The Marshall MXL603 is easy for them to locate and ship.

As for preamps the store also recommends the PreSonus Blue TUBE. The next step up was something called the Brick and after that a Presonus ELECTRA. The Brick was $400 and the Electra $500. That is beyond by spending limit for now.

The salesperson also showed me a Yamaha mixer ($100) and a Berringer UB802A. They are not an Electro-Voice dealer and the Joe Meeks is ify.

For violin recorded on open reel do I need a tube preamp for softening the sound? Doesn't the recorder do that?

Tube preamp or mixer? I'll have to decide which road to go down. At least I can play with it for 30 days and swap out if unhappy.

Reg

 

[chessparov]

Reg, FWIW here's what I would do with a $500 budget;

1) Get an EV RE15 for home recording. (about $100-130 used for a nice one)

2) Choose between the VTB-1, DMP3, or new Joe Meek 3Q
www.pmiaudio.com will show the Studio Projects and Joe Meek lines.

3) IF you can record in a good sounding room, add the EV 635a omni
to your shortlist. They run about $70 used in very good condition.

4) Go to www.realtraps.com and check out their "MiniTraps".
IIRC they cost about $150 for the pair, and will break up
standing waves, along with better acoustical control.

Ethan Winer has his own forum at www.musicplayer.com
where you can also ask him questions. He's a nice guy
who's a well known pro authority on acoustical design.

5) Your reel to reel with already have a "softer" sound than low
and mid-level digital recording systems, other things being equal.

The quality (or lack thereof) of the room sound again, will be a prime
concern-after the skill level of the musician themselves.

The EV 635a's were used on many major classical recordings during the 60's
and 70's. So if they're good enough for a pair to record an ENTIRE orchestra,
they just "might" be fine for recording one violin.
Just go to ebay and get one. If they have a picture, check for dents in the
grill. 635a's lose some top end if they've been dropped nose first.
Otherwise, they are more durable than just about any mic on the planet!

The starved plate "tube" aka toob mic pre's at Guitar Center don't really sound
like a professional tube mic pre, like a Peavey VMP2 (on up).
Expect to pay from $800 on up used for a mic pre like that.

The budget toobs add a dirtier/grittier tone vs. one of these units.
You're better off either getting a "clean pre" (DMP3 or Joe Meek 3Q),
or one where the toob feature is optional and not in the main output always
(like the VTB-1).

The Yamaha and Behringer mixer pre's will be a step down from the ones suggested above, and will be less "life-like" in their sound imaging.

Chris

 

[afinepoint]

Chris,

The RE-15 looks like a tough find. E-bay did have one but it looked rough and I didn't get a good feel from the seller. I did a Google and Yahoo advanced search but did not catch anything. The sites were either nonfuntional, cryptic or otherwise of little use. A search on the Electro voice homepage was fruitless. There I found a RE-20 but nothing more. The contact feature pulled up a bunch of sales reps numbers. If I can find one locally I will try it if not the Marshall MXL603 will have to do.

As for preamps both you and Richard mentioned the DMP-3. That resides at the top of my list.

I tried to register at the musicplayer.com to ask Ethan Winer a question but that did not workout.

The information you guys are giving is really helping me finalize my choices.

I have found some EV 635a's on E-bay. What is the max that these are worth used? How would using these alter the preamp choice? I am trying to learn here.

Thanks,

Reg

 

[cjacek]

Why complicate things ????

I'd second the EV 635a and RE-15/16 choices. Also, from what I've read (having a reel to reel myself) the Technics RS-1500 is a KILLER R2R machine capable of going 15ips. That's some serious shit. Also, and I may be wrong, but it's also a 2 track machine with wider tracks than a 4 track model. If I'm wrong on this point then it doesn't matter 'cause the original poster got himself a very good recorder to start with. At the same time, and again from experience, most of these types of decks have excellent preamps. The ONLY thing that's needed, imho, is at least one of those mics above (you really can't go wrong with either choice) and a hi-z cable or adapter. Lastly, positioning of the mic(s), level setting and general recording technique are critical. Reg, if you really don't care about picking up "room sound" then I highly recommend the 635a. Get one on eBay but make sure it's in "mint" condition or close to it. Ask for additional picts and info from the seller if in doubt. There you have it, all you want for no more than about $100 bucks. No need for anything "extra".

Daniel

 

[chessparov]

Reg, the EV RE15 (unfortunately) was discontinued by Electro-Voice although they still service support them.
Try both ONLY "RE15" and "RE-15" when checking on ebay.
You'll find more that way.

My concern on the RE16 is that it has a relatively more pronounced presence peak than the RE15, and that the off-axis response is brighter/thinner.

A brand new 635a typically costs about $100, so up to $80 is O.K. if it's in excellent cosmetic/working condition.

You may also want to consider one of the budget Lexicon or TC reverb units to enhance home recordings when close miking.
Save the reverb to add to what's already recorded.

It's common for professional recordings of solo violin to be from a distance
of 12 to 20 feet away in a top notch concert hall BTW.

Chris

 

[cjacek]

My concern on the RE16 is that it has a relatively more pronounced presence peak than the RE15, and that the off-axis response is brighter/thinner.

Thanks for the tip! Btw: what is the freq response of the re-15 ? Also, not having direct experience with this mic, but with other EV mics, I would like to know if the highs, especially the "ss" and "sh" and other "offending" frequencies are tamed when using the re-15. I love the 635a but it has those highs which I don't particulary care for. It's not that they're bad sounding but I just prefer the sound of more mellow and less pronounced highs with more mellow over all tone. Does the re-15 fit this bill ? Also, because the re-15 doesn't have a wind screen/pop filter, how does one manage close up micing ? Thanks again for the info Chris!

Daniel

 

[chessparov]

The RE15 goes up to 15 kHz and down to 80 Hz.

It has some foam and a screen, however, it's advisable to use a pop screen.
Being hypercardiod, it won't pick up as much room ambience.
Flatter response than the 635a, more mellow, less sibilance issues.

Been thinking lately that using both at once for vocals would be very interesting, and should work quite well.

 

[cjacek]

The RE15 goes up to 15 kHz and down to 80 Hz.

It has some foam and a screen, however, it's advisable to use a pop screen.
Being hypercardiod, it won't pick up as much room ambience.
Flatter response than the 635a, more mellow, less sibilance issues.

Been thinking lately that using both at once for vocals would be very interesting, and should work quite well.

Thanks Chris! Say, does the re-15 lose its high end, like the 635a, when it's dropped ?

Daniel

 

[afinepoint]

Excellent feedback guys.

Chris should the Minitraps or something similar be used with the 635a since more room noise will be picked up? At 10 feet or so there is going to be alot (more) noise.

Another question - the greater the distance from the source the greater the need for sound absorption or cancellation?

If I can get away without a preamp for now I might go with the RE-15 and 635a for experimentation, learning and versatilty. Waiting will allow me to boost what I can spend on a preamp to around $4-500 for the amp alone.
What's the best buy in that price range?

Reg

 

[cjacek]

If I can get away without a preamp for now I might go with the RE-15 and 635a for experimentation, learning and versatilty. Waiting will allow me to boost what I can spend on a preamp to around $4-500 for the amp alone.
What's the best buy in that price range?

Reg

Excellent choice with the 2 mics. But why would you wanna get an external preamp with your setup ? You have a high-end recorder with excellent pre's and so all you're doing, in my opinion, is shelling out unnecessary bucks, that can be better spent elsewhere.

Daniel

 

[chessparov]

Again IF a room naturally sounds "good" then the 635a should be fine without something like the MiniTraps. For most any typical room in a home, however,
the MiniTraps would be highly advisable for any microphone.

Yes the RE15 could be damaged in the same way as a 635a if dropped, soit's always a good idea to check the grill if possible before buying one.

The RE15 would be a nice choice for home recording, then use the 635a for a better sounding room, although the RE15 would still be O.K. too.
Downside of the RE15 in that event is that it misses out on most of the positive ambience in a good room.

Reg, if you ask Ethan either at his forum, or via his website, you'd get superior answers regarding acoustical questions vs. me.

Not familiar with the pre's in your reel to reel.
Typically you'd want a separate mic pre to bring things up to line level.
Another dual mic pre possibility under $200 used is the Symetrix SX202
(or SX-202) which is a well regarded product like the other ones I
mentioned.

Chris

 

[afinepoint]

Chris,

Well I got the word back from Ethan Winer at musicplayer.com and he suggests the AudioTechnica AT822. Any thoughts on this microphone? It's about twice what I planned on paying but I believe it doesn't require a preamp. True?

Being of the Cardioid (x) polar pattern design would two be useful for a better (spatial) sound pattern? What about setting one up close and another farther away?

Anyone have thoughts on any of this?

Reg

 

[Warhead]

That's a stereo mic designed to be used for video work etc.

Don't know a thing about it other than that.

War

 

[darrin_h2000]

I have the at822 but I never use it...Ive allways got better results using the MXL603s in an x-y pattern...be sure and aim them where the body meets the neck or you will get a honky tone...I was lucky enough to have gotten one of the good Bluetube pres but you are taking your chances there...the Dmp3 is way more consistant. and close mic so the room doesnt make such a big difference...if this is live then the room is big enough to not be a factor unless this is amplified as well.

 

[afinepoint]

I appreciate the input.

Reg

 

[chessparov]

I've considered the AT 825 in the past, which is the XLR version.
Some pro AE's have commented it has better sound quality than the 822.

Chris

 

[afinepoint]

Richie,

According to The Guitar Center's "pro" the Oktava MC012 is not a microphone in itself but a kit that augments the MK012 by adjusting the pattern of the MK012.

Yet when I do a search under Oktava MC012 I get articles referring to a microphone. Is the "pro" at the store blowing smoke or is there some fact to what he is saying. I believe he wants me to buy the MK012 he has in the store.

I (he) have yet to locate any Oktava MC012s. I have taken the list of suggestions from this site and am slowly working through them.

Reg

 

[Richard Monroe]

MC012 is just a Guitar Center designation for MK012. Different translations of the cyrillic alphabet. Grab the mic while you still can.-Richie

 

[afinepoint]

Thanks. Will pickup a MK012K and they are looking for a MK012. I am getting these because they will soon be gone. Will still look into the AT822, RE15, EV635a and so on but those seem more readily available.

Reg