Which mic to buy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter afinepoint
  • Start date Start date
This is getting really silly. All afinepoint wants is an accurate recodinging of his daughter's playing. It's not a request to reinvent the wheel. Too many different options are confusing.

To afinepoint:

If your recorder will work with low impedance mics, just get an ECM8000 omni mic from Behringer (under 50 bucks) and something like a Stewart phantom power supply (around $100). Place the mic about 2' above the violin, about a foot or two in front, and press record. You'll have a super accurate recording of the sound of her violin. Another spot might be better, but this is as good a starting point as any.

If the mic inputs on the tape deck are not low impedance, get a Studio Projects VTB-1 preamp (under $150) instead of the phantom power supply, and plug the VTB-1's output into the recorder's line input. A $90 Audio Buddy preamp will also work just fine.

If your recording has too much of the room sound, just put up a few heavy blankets on some poles and make a little 3 sided "blanket room" to tame the room sound. What is "too much room sound"? A kind of hollowness to the sound, like you're hearing the sound bounce off the walls of the room.

Yes, an Oktava MC012 will work about the same way as the Behringer, but the Oktava omni capsule would be a better choice than the standard cardioid capsule. As a general rule, omni capsules tend to be flatter and more accurate than other polar patterns.

Some omnis have a rising response when pointed straight at the instrument being recorded. If you hear too much top end, just point the omni somewhere else (but leave it in the same place), and it will work fine.

While most of the answers you've received are good answers, a lot of them are overkill and make things a lot more complicated than they need to be.

You want an accute recording? Use an accurate mic. Most omnis are very accurate and pretty cheap. You have room noises? Use the blankets. You don't have long poles to put up blankets? Use two blankets in a corner, using push pins to hold them up. Stand her in the corner, facing out into the room. Set up the mic and press record. Try to keep your peak levels around 0dB on the tape deck's meters. 1 or 2 dB over at times won't kill you.

Like I said, this ain't rocket science.
 
Man, my ears are already hurting at the very thought of listening to some guy's kid playing the violin.

OUCH ! ! !


:D :D :D

Just kidding.


Either way, I think you're going to make yourself and your pets a lot happier if you look in to some sort of ribbon microphone. If you don't think you can swing that, then I'd certainly have a look at something a little darker and less responsive. Chessparov mentions some pretty decent -- albeit discontiued :D -- dynamic mics that could fit the bill. Another suggestion I might make would be the Oktava MK-319. Nice, dark, cheap condenser that sounds more like a dynamic or ribbon. Should be a lot easier on the ears.
 
Lowest frequency for a violin is 196 hz. I don't think bass traps are indicated in such a situation; that is, Harvey's blankets should work fine.
 
IMHO if you want a quality Oktava, go to www.oktava.com

Otherwise you're taking a chance that either a Banjo Depot Oktava is performing under "specs", or that it will go kaput the day after the
warranty expires (or whenever).

Oktava's factory workers would commonly use alternative parts and/or
do poor soldering INSIDE the mic where you can't see it unless you
open up the microphone. A GC manager disclosed to me that about
1 in 15 Oktava's they receive are totally "dead" on arrival.
Maybe this had a little something with them dropping them heh heh.

Ask Scott Dorsey at RAP who repairs them if ya don't believe me! :)

Chris
 
Thanks again for all the information. My head is spinning!

Harvey, I do not know if the Technics 1500RS will work with low impedance mics. I have an owners manual someone sent to me from England. Thumbing through it again may give me some insight. The deck itself is living history. I don't want to push it as many parts especially heads are impossible to get. That is, I'd rather not move it about too much.

Chris, I tried going to oktava.com but kept getting highjacked to sound-room.com/customer/home.phpm which appears to sell oktava.

I will go slow and if I can get a good deal on the microphones I'll buy. But as Harvey mentioned there are alot of opinions here. A whole lot. What one thinks is the greatest another wouldn't touch with the old ten-foot pole.

I am looking for a microphone that a least three people will rally around as "the one" for violin.

I like the blanket idea. Keeping it simple!

Sincerely,

Reg
 
Yo finepoint! You weren't hijacked. Oktava.com *is* The Sound Room. The proprieter, Taylor Johnson, is a passionate dude who does superb quality control and matching of Oktava mics, and a couple of other Russian lines. His value added is worth every penny of the premium price he charges for Oktava mics. Just for your info, Harvey Gerst, who responded to you above, is one of the most credentialed mic experts on the planet, and a top tracking engineer who has taken high quality recording with inexpensive mics to a whole new level.
That said, the Behringer mic he recommends, is a *wicked cheap* omnidirectional measurement microphone designed for measuring room acoustics. Some of them are noisy, and apparently others are not, but quality control is a little suspect in a $36!! mic. They do, however, work. I think your best bet would be to get a decent 2 channel preamp and a pair of small diaphragm condensers that offer the cardioid and omni options. A matched pair of the Oktavas with both capsules from The Sound room would be a good option, but I believe a pair of Studio Projects C-4's would be more cost effective ($320 or so). I have used both microphones extensively on violin and viola, and either will work well. For a preamp on the cheap, M-Audio DMP-3 will work. I believe the FMR Audio RNP for about $500 would be a better choice in the long run, but either will work. And what the hell, for $36, throw in the Behringer. I'll usually gamble $36 on Harvey being right. Blankets? Hell no! Go whole hog. Use sleeping bags, the cheaper the better.
Lastly, the ribbon mics mentioned above are a form of dynamic microphone which have been a studio standard for strings and many other things for years. They are delicate, require a real good preamp, as their output is low, they are expensive as hell, and are very desireable. I doubt they will fit with your current plan, but the better ones are killer mics indeed.-Richie
 
Richie's dead on.
One vote from Harvey is worth about 100 from me!
(not that this keeps my big mouth shut)

Chris
 
I know. I realize as I typed the thought was chimerical.

Reg
 
I'm gonna make this really simple for ya, afinepoint. Send me your address, and I'll loan you a DMP3 preamp, a VTB-1 preamp, a Behringer ECM8000, and an MXL 603 for a few weeks. Try them all, and then, you tell the group which mic and preamp worked best for you. All it'll cost you is airmail shipping both ways, which should be cheap.

That way, you can decide what works best for your situation without having to rely on anybody's opinion.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I'm gonna make this really simple for ya, afinepoint. Send me your address, and I'll loan you a DMP3 preamp, a VTB-1 preamp, a Behringer ECM8000, and an MXL 603 for a few weeks. Try them all, and then, you tell the group which mic and preamp worked best for you. All it'll cost you is airmail shipping both ways, which should be cheap.

That way, you can decide what works best for your situation without having to rely on anybody's opinion.

Say, Harvey. I'm, uh, having a really hard time deciding between a bunch of gear, too. Yea.

Particularly between the RCA and Coles Ribbon mics.

And, uh, you see . . . I just keep getting so many opinions. My head is just really spinning. Coles, RCA, Coles, RCA. 44B . . . 77B . . . Ahh! The madness ! ! When will it end? ?
 
chessrock said:
Say, Harvey. I'm, uh, having a really hard time deciding between a bunch of gear, too. Yea.

Particularly between the RCA and Coles Ribbon mics.

And, uh, you see . . . I just keep getting so many opinions. My head is just really spinning. Coles, RCA, Coles, RCA. 44B . . . 77B . . . Ahh! The madness ! ! When will it end? ?
LOL I've got 4 ECM8000's, and 7 MXL603's, so I can spare them for a few weeks, along with the VTB-1 and the DMP-3. I use the RCA's and the Coles a little more (and I've only got 1 77DX, i 44BX, and 1 4038), so they'll be staying here.
 
Harvey,

You are a generous man. I feel indebted for the offer alone. I accept your kindness but ask for time while I secure a stage or hall for recording. One thing that has been crystal clear is that typical house rooms are unsuitable.

I have picked up an Octava MK012 ( got to start somewhere) which came with the three capsules for altering the pattern along with a 2 year warranty ( I heard you Chris), shock mount, two 25' cables and mic stands. It all came to about $250. If they can locate another MK012 at a good price I will get it. I will play around with an AT822.

The Guitar Center discounted an Audio Buddy preamp to around $45 so that is on order. I figure it will give me something to start with since that was one of the mentioned preamps and the price seemed good.

Chris: I can not find an EV yet but I have not given up. The store is looking around for the Joe Meek.

The Guitar Center mentioned the next step up preamp wise would be a Presonus Eureka ($500). Comments?

One of the more knowledgeable guys was also not too impressed by the BLUE Tube. Something about the PreSonus using the tubes for sound altering vice actually power as the older machines do. The machine that actually depend on the vacuum tubes for power softened as a product of design vice purposeful intent. Friend of yours Richard?

Daniel: I will try the inputs of the Technics alone to see how it goes.

Before someone mentions it the Guitar Center is not my sole source. They have fairly knowledgeable people, are easy to work with and a low price guarantee.

With the offer from Harvey I should be able to wrap this up soon.

Three pages! My original question has really landed a wealth of input and ideas and we have stayed focused on that question. Well done.

Reg
 
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afinepoint said:
Harvey,

One thing that has been crystal clear is that typical house rooms are unsuitable.
That's not always true... for example, the Studio Projects C series mic demo CD was recorded in an apartment in NY. ;)
 
afinepoint said:
Harvey,

You are a generous man. I feel indebted for the offer alone. I accept your kindness but ask for time while I secure a stage or hall for recording. One thing that has been crystal clear is that typical house rooms are unsuitable.

Whoa, as I recall, the original mission objective was something like:

"I would like to make live, in-home recordings of my daughter's violin playing. Nothing fancy or professional."

When did that objective change?

I have picked up an Octava MK012 ( got to start somewhere) which came with the three capsules for altering the pattern along with a 2 year warranty ( I heard you Chris), shock mount, two 25' cables and mic stands. It all came to about $250. If they can locate another MK012 at a good price I will get it. Reg
The Oktava with the omni head is a great mic for solo violin. Go find a corner of the room, stick up some packing blankets or sleeping bags, stick a mic above her violin, hit record, and you're done. The DMP-3 or the VTB-1 puts out a full 48 volts of phantom power; the Audio Buddy does not. But underpowering the the Oktava may produce warmer sounding results, so don't discount the Audio Buddy without listening to it first.

The main thing you hafta remember about recording is that it's very easy to go crazy about this stuff (and spend a lot of money in the process). If your original mission is unchanged (i.e., getting an accurate "nothing fancy" recording of your daughter's violin playing), I've already outlined the procedure for doing that at home. You don't need to record her in stereo.

Think about it; what is the actual purpose of these recordings? If it's to sell to the public, rent some damn nice mics, a hall, and get an experienced engineer to record her the first time, while you watch and ask questions. If these recordings are to chart her progress as a musician, are you going to rent a hall each time? That's silly.

Just set up a nice area in your home and be done with it. No it won't be super fancy or "professional", but it will produce good, accurate recordings of her playing, which is what you originally asked for.
 
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chessparov said:
IMHO if you want a quality Oktava, go to www.oktava.com

Otherwise you're taking a chance that either a Banjo Depot Oktava is performing under "specs", or that it will go kaput the day after the
warranty expires (or whenever).

Oktava's factory workers would commonly use alternative parts and/or
do poor soldering INSIDE the mic where you can't see it unless you
open up the microphone. A GC manager disclosed to me that about
1 in 15 Oktava's they receive are totally "dead" on arrival.
Maybe this had a little something with them dropping them heh heh.

Ask Scott Dorsey at RAP who repairs them if ya don't believe me! :)

Chris

This has never been my experience with the latest crop of GC MC012s. I've owned 8 and I've never had a problem with them. Ever! They all sound almost the same too, and I've done extensive testing.

The Oktava quality control thing has been overblown for quite some time now, IMO.
 
I second the Blue Tube disapproval. When I went from a Blue Tube to a DMP3, it was like lifting a blanket off of the microphones.
 
cominginsecond said:
This has never been my experience with the latest crop of GC MC012s. I've owned 8 and I've never had a problem with them. Ever! They all sound almost the same too, and I've done extensive testing.

The Oktava quality control thing has been overblown for quite some time now, IMO.
I agree... I've never had any problems with either my SoundRoom MC-012's or the ones I got from MF.
 
Harvey,

My mission remains unchanged. Trying to keep things elegantly simple. It was looking like I would be frustrated and disappointed trying to record at home. I would prefer to work at home. If I have/had to work away I was going to try to borrow a school auditorium. I have read and heard that a violin needs open air. I can't argue the point but it seems to make sense.

I do intend to start out in my home and if things sound good then enough said. Why make things harder?

The Guitar Center stated that the Audio Buddy has phantom power. It comes in tomorrow so I'll see. Or did you mean it has <48 volts?

I spent money on the Oktava because I listened to the forum and drew on my old audiophile knowledge whereby the pickup and speakers were (are?) the most critical.

Today I have been in communication with one of the few companies that still ship open reel tape. I got an answer back on the tape to use. The plan is slowly coming together.

I hope your offer still stands. It will save me time and $$$.

You stated " it's very easy to go crazy about this stuff (and spend a lot of money in the process)". Don't worry. I already have plenty of things to spend lots of money on. One is in the garage leaking transmission fluid everywhere.

I'll be in touch.

Reg
 
afinepoint said:
The Guitar Center stated that the Audio Buddy has phantom power. It comes in tomorrow so I'll see. Or did you mean it has <48 volts?
+48V phantom power supply... as appose to a lower voltage phantom power supply... you want the full +48V phantom power supply. Some cheap supplies have a lower voltage.
 
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