Which 16 channel mixer with high end preamps?

Yeah, I am live guy, but I do also own a studio. I am not looking to replace my console. I am pretty darned familiar with both types. Maybe there was something wrong with the one I had, maybe there wasn't. I just did not care for it. Like I said before though, there are plenty of other yamaha consoles that I do like though, and when you are ready I will pitch you my huge selling idea for the m7cl consoles;)
 
xstatic said:
None of this was meant to be personal, just me sharing my experience. For us, the N12 at what it cost did not make sense.
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Nah, of course not...nothing personal.

I like that Console you have in your studio...WOW!:cool:
That thing rocks.
 
Hey George! I AM waiting for an N12 direct from you guys to put through the paces. :) Greg was over here last week and said he'd try to get one over to us to do a full workup on. Ive heard the pres are excellent as well, but haven't gotten to hear them myself yet. Looking forward to it!

Mike @ ADK
 
drstawl said:
I bought my A&H MixWiz 16:2 just to get some decent pres to feed to my Delta 1010. They are a great match as the Delta is just a tad cleaner than the A&H.
With the tilt-up SKB case it's as portable as an old typewriter.
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This sounds like a good setup. I was thinking of getting two or three 1010LT's. I could use the first 3-4 channels on the mixer as recording channel strips using the direct outputs to record via the 1010LT into cubase. I could then send all of these recorded channels + vst instruments out to the desk for mixdown before sending the final mix back into cubase to record.......not sure if latency will become an issue with this though?
 
hemmick reef said:
What sort of mixer are you using and how does it sound different?
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The Yamaha N12...

I’ve always mixed ITB using plugin’s but I’ve often tracked with some EQ and compression. I only plugs that come with Sonar Producer and Cubase AI and Sound Forge. I do like the Sonnitus plugs in Sonar quite a bit. I’m not yet too familiar with the plugs in Cubase but have played around with a few and they are good.

Mixing on the N12 has given me a different outlook on mixing in general. Part of it is just feel that I had not experienced before. Real faders and knobs are kind of cool. The N12 reverb doesn’t have a bunch of controls but I immediately on my first mix attempt found the reverb to my liking better than any plugin I have. I’ve even used it, and the morph compressor on mixing tube amps with nice results. I’ve reached a point now (and there is no right way or wrong way) where I have no desire to mix ITB anymore. Sure, I may do some sub-mixing here or there but generally speaking I’m out of the box for good! The N12 is not going to work for everyone and some will prefer a compete digital mixer that has scene recalls and all that. I just fill out a track sheet and keep that with the song I’m mixing. But this is just my approach and you can still mix ITB with the N12. I’ve been so excited with mixing on the N12 I’ve gone back to some previously mixed material I have in Sonar and remixing them on the N12. The A/D/DA is excellent and I say without hesitation I like it better than my Delta 1010.
 
drstawl said:
I bought my A&H MixWiz 16:2 just to get some decent pres to feed to my Delta 1010. They are a great match as the Delta is just a tad cleaner than the A&H.
With the tilt-up SKB case it's as portable as an old typewriter.
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You know Doc I came VERY close to doing the same thing with my 1010 last summer. I ended going a different route with the N12 but I'm happy to hear that setup worked out well for you.
 
hemmick reef said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am looking at 16 channel mixers, and wonder what sort of price/make/model would have top quality preamps and eq?

I want to use the hardware mixer with cubase, rather than mix in the box or use a control surface - I want some analog in the chain somewhere and simply want the hands on approach to recording and mixing (if you know what I mean).

The only problem is paying for a mixer with a bunch of preamps when I only really use one or two at a time, but I will need the eq and channels to mix.

Hope this makes sense


Thanks
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hemmick reef, you are really talking about two different things: recording tracks one or two at a time, and then mixing them 16 channels at a time. I suggest you approach each task individually.

For the recording part of your chain you might be better off with a great quality two channel preamp going directly into your audio interface. This will get you better preamps than you'll find on any of the boards you are considering.

Then, you are free to buy whatever board best suits your needs for mixing. Which may or may not be any of the above. Because you no longer need preamps you are now opened up to use a board like the Speck XtraMix, for example.

I also like the Midas Venice series. Although it is aimed more at live mixing, it is a good all around board, as long as you don't need 8 or more busses.

The Toft (which I haven't heard) has 8 busses, so that would be an important factor for me versus the Venice, Mix Wizard, or Mackie Onyx.

The Yamaha N12 is a digital board and you said that you want some analog in the chain, so the Yamaha is not a consideration if indeed you want to keep it analog.

In fact, none of these boards have what would generally be considered High end preamps or eq. But some will certainly be better than others. The first decision you have to make is whether you need eight busses or four. That will narrow your search a lot.
 
SonicAlbert said:
hemmick reef, you are really talking about two different things: recording tracks one or two at a time, and then mixing them 16 channels at a time. I suggest you approach each task individually.

For the recording part of your chain you might be better off with a great quality two channel preamp going directly into your audio interface. This will get you better preamps than you'll find on any of the boards you are considering.

Then, you are free to buy whatever board best suits your needs for mixing. Which may or may not be any of the above. Because you no longer need preamps you are now opened up to use a board like the Speck XtraMix, for example.
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+1, I agree 100%

The questions are, how much do you want to spend and what outboard gear do you have now?

Before I get into my post here, Mixing ITB or OTB are different sides to the same coin. Either method will work well; you have to decide which one will fit your workflow best and get you the sound you are after. I actually prefer the hybrid approach, which looks like what you are after.

I would definitely first invest into a good quality two channel mic pre. I am assuming your budget is limited, so I would get a summing mixer. I suggest the Speck X.Sum. It does not have as many bells and whistles as the XtraMix, but it does not cost near as much. The X.Sum has 16 stereo inputs. Of course you can use them mono. Each channel has its own pan and vol control. (I know it does not have eq, but unless you are ready to by the Toft ATB 16 or a used MCI, I would stick with plug-in EQs.) You can place out board EQ and compressors between your DAW and the mixer.

A summing mixer may not sound like the path you may have wanted to go, but whatever low end mixer you get you will most likely outgrow its limitations and end up using it solely for mixing channels together. Remember, unless you have a board where you can actually bypass the EQ section, you will always be sending your signal through that circuitry. Having something like the X.Sum, you can always remove (or upgrade) the EQ from your signal path.

I just want you to know I am not telling you what to buy or not to buy; I just want you to be aware of the future so that the money you spend today will be in equipment that you can still use for tomorrow.

Good Luck!
 
I forgot to mention.

If you just need something really inexpensive, just get a used Mackie LM-3204 off ebay. If you out grow it, you should be able to get your money back out of it when you go to resell it.
 
SonicAlbert said:
hemmick reef, you are really talking about two different things: recording tracks one or two at a time, and then mixing them 16 channels at a time. I suggest you approach each task individually.

For the recording part of your chain you might be better off with a great quality two channel preamp going directly into your audio interface. This will get you better preamps than you'll find on any of the boards you are considering.

Then, you are free to buy whatever board best suits your needs for mixing. Which may or may not be any of the above. Because you no longer need preamps you are now opened up to use a board like the Speck XtraMix, for example.

I also like the Midas Venice series. Although it is aimed more at live mixing, it is a good all around board, as long as you don't need 8 or more busses.

The Toft (which I haven't heard) has 8 busses, so that would be an important factor for me versus the Venice, Mix Wizard, or Mackie Onyx.

The Yamaha N12 is a digital board and you said that you want some analog in the chain, so the Yamaha is not a consideration if indeed you want to keep it analog.

In fact, none of these boards have what would generally be considered High end preamps or eq. But some will certainly be better than others. The first decision you have to make is whether you need eight busses or four. That will narrow your search a lot.
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I think you're correct - separate preamps/channel strips and a mixer purely for mixdown - I will probably head down that path

Cheers......:):)
 
geosync said:
Even though the n12 is a digital mixer, it does have high end ANALOG preamps before the A/D
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The N12 does not have high end preamps. Don't believe everything you read, especially advertising copy from manufacturers trying to sell a product.

As far as the X.Sum, I own one of those along with a couple Xtramix's. The X.Sum is a great sounding little one rack space summing mixer. However, it doesn't have any aux sends or busses (it does have an alternate buss making it a sort of four buss mixer). It also doesn't have any eq built in.

If you are serious about doing a real analog mix, the X.Sum is not the way to go. I use it just the way Fishmed describes, i.e. I use plugins and then outboard between the DAW and the X.Sum. But that is very different than doing a full-on analog mix. For that you really do need a board with 8 busses and eq, aux sends/returns, etc. And that sounds like what you are looking for.

I also owned three Mackie LM-3204's at one point. It's actually one of their better sounding mixers due to the extreme simplicity of the signal flow, but again it's very limited as to how detailed a mix you can do with it. I wouldn't recommend it for that, it's a keyboard submixer. If you go with Mackie, I wouldn't get less than the latest 16 channel Onyx.

But the Toft might the board for you. If you do decide to go that way, get the mixer first and use the onboard preamps for a while. You might find they suit you, and that will save you buying a pair of standalone preamps.
 
If you're not going to pay attention to my mono-sibylic quips... then at least listen to this man... Sonic's saying the same thing... but much more eloquently...
 
SonicAlbert said:
The N12 does not have high end preamps. Don't believe everything you read, especially advertising copy from manufacturers trying to sell a product.

As far as the X.Sum, I own one of those along with a couple Xtramix's. The X.Sum is a great sounding little one rack space summing mixer. However, it doesn't have any aux sends or busses (it does have an alternate buss making it a sort of four buss mixer). It also doesn't have any eq built in.

If you are serious about doing a real analog mix, the X.Sum is not the way to go. I use it just the way Fishmed describes, i.e. I use plugins and then outboard between the DAW and the X.Sum. But that is very different than doing a full-on analog mix. For that you really do need a board with 8 busses and eq, aux sends/returns, etc. And that sounds like what you are looking for.

I also owned three Mackie LM-3204's at one point. It's actually one of their better sounding mixers due to the extreme simplicity of the signal flow, but again it's very limited as to how detailed a mix you can do with it. I wouldn't recommend it for that, it's a keyboard submixer. If you go with Mackie, I wouldn't get less than the latest 16 channel Onyx.

But the Toft might the board for you. If you do decide to go that way, get the mixer first and use the onboard preamps for a while. You might find they suit you, and that will save you buying a pair of standalone preamps.
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We are still in agreement. :) I was just saying that unless you have the $$$ to spend on good quality gear, you are better off using plug-ins than buying low quality gear. When I mentioned the use of the LM-3204, I meant (and should have said) that you should still get a good quality two channel mic pre to go with it. Which type of mixer you get all depends on what outboard gear you have or plan to get to use with it.
 
Right, your suggestions were good, I just wanted to fill out the information a little bit since I've owned the gear you were talking about.

The only other thing about the LM-3204 is that it is a first generation Mackie mixer that came out at the same time as the original CR-1604. So it has the first generation preamps and first generation eq. It's an outstanding keyboard submixer, and I actually like that the preamps are completely separate from all the channel inputs (you have to patch them). It's a good sounding little mixer actually, but there's no question that a mixer like the Speck X.Sum or Xtramix completely blows it away in terms of sound.
 
Hard2Hear said:
Hey George! I AM waiting for an N12 direct from you guys to put through the paces. :) Greg was over here last week and said he'd try to get one over to us to do a full workup on. Ive heard the pres are excellent as well, but haven't gotten to hear them myself yet. Looking forward to it!

Mike @ ADK
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Mike... did you had the chance to test the N12?
 
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