Which 16 channel mixer with high end preamps?

Thanks for the comments:

After hearing what constitutes high end in terms of a mixer I feel a little....:o...although I should of guessed at the price tag with this sort of gear.

http://www.toftaudio.com/atb16.html

I had a look at this and the Gearwire videos at the bottom of the page. It sounds like the desk that I am looking for...:D....I'll have to save up a bit more though, and I am sure that it will be high end enough for me!

I am also interested in the Mackie Onyx and the Allen & Heath mixers after having a look on their websites.

As a home studio I am sure that the three possibilities mentioned in above would suffice...:)
 
DigitMus said:
....But I'm an old analog-head who just can't do "ITB" - & believe me, I've tried.
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LOL,

I never knew what I was missing until I recently mixed OTB on my new mixer....wow! I may do a little sub-mixing here or there but generally speaking I'm done with ITB mixing.
 
I have managed to get my hands on a couple of the new Toft boards now. Personally, I would not call it high end, but is certainly great for the money spent. As for the preamps, they are nothing to write home about, and will not replace outboard preamps, but they are certainly nice to fall back on when your outboard list is not enough to cover everything. The real strength is indeed the EQ's. They are a good musical sounding EQ, and at the same time have some real attitude. Not sure about the whole "summing" thing since I have not done a full mixdown through one, but the Toft seems pretty well built. The EQ definately has some of that "classic" vibe you get on the old tridents, but it is still no Series 80 are "A" range or anything like that. Then again, it is also new and cheaper which has to count for something. As far as comparing it with the Midas Venice, I would say that sonically it rates in my book as neck and neck. I still prefer the Midas preamp, but I may actually like the Toft EQ a little better. In my mind, basing a decision purely on sionic capabilities, it is very close to the Midas. The real kicker though is that it offers more features than the Midas. I don't think it would handle being cased up and hitting the road in a truck as well though. The build on the Midas actually "feels" a little better, but I have no experience with comparing the longevity of the two boards. For the studio however, I would most likely buy the Toft over the Midas do to its layout and feature set.

As for the yamah N12, I had one in the shop for a little bit. Personally, I was much less than impressed. It has the same typical cheap yamaha sound as the othe little yamaha mixers, but it does offer the integration with the DAW. We sold our little N12 off pretty quickly since personally, even our old version 01V sounded MUCH better. The yamah preamps in the N12's are noisy, low gain, and do not handle high bandwidth very well. It was bad enough that I didn't even bother taking it back to the stuido to test it as a DAW controller since I could never see paying that much for a DAW controller like that that had such bad sounding electronics. The EQ's on it were pretty dissapointing as well.

The Mackie Onyx has decent pre's on it. Fairly transparent and won't really help or hurt you. It seems that Mackie has done a good job taking care of the crosstalk issues, and the clipping issues from previous Mackie VLZ stuff. The EQ on the Onyx is also much more responsive than the EQ on the older VLZ stuff as well. The Onyx overall quality puts the Mackie stuff neck and neck with the Allen Heath Stuff like the Mix wiz in my opinion. If I had to choose between the two I would just do a direct feature comparison and probably buy based on avilability and cost for me. The Allen Heath definately has a different sound to me, just not necessarily better. The Allen Heath seems to have a little more character and not quite as quiet as the Mackie. It would all depend on which sound I was after and what they would each cost me as an end buyer.
 
xstatic said:
As for the yamah N12, I had one in the shop for a little bit. Personally, I was much less than impressed. It has the same typical cheap yamaha sound as the othe little yamaha mixers, but it does offer the integration with the DAW. We sold our little N12 off pretty quickly since personally, even our old version 01V sounded MUCH better. The yamah preamps in the N12's are noisy, low gain, and do not handle high bandwidth very well. It was bad enough that I didn't even bother taking it back to the stuido to test it as a DAW controller since I could never see paying that much for a DAW controller like that that had such bad sounding electronics. The EQ's on it were pretty dissapointing as well.
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Totally amazing! Not at all my experience. I've not heard anyone say N12 pres are noisy. Low gain? They are anything but low gain. Sure, have to turn it up more for a condenser but the gain has really surprised me in how much there is and now much headroom. I've tracked and worked with the MG series and it's not close to the same league as an N12. I've also heard the Onyx pre's and I find the N12 better without any hesitation. We are CERTAINLY not hearing the same thing. I've got an Alesis mixer that sounds as good (not saying better) as any Mackie or cheap Yammy I've heard yet it pales in comparison to the N12. The forum over at Gearslutz is filled with people that rave about the N12.

Perhaps we could set up a meeting sometime and you could come over to my studio and demonstrate the noise and lack of gain on the N12? Many things are subjective in sound but I pick up absolutely no noise. Perhaps you had a malfunctioning unit? Who did you get your N12 from?

What kind of A/D/DA converters do you have?

Interesting too is you'll find people at places like Gearslutz who can't stand Onyx pres/:D it can get quite subjective as you know.

But the noise thing and gain I really don't understand. I'm not seeing this at all with N12.
 
Well, that was my experience with the yamaha N12. For reference, I got mine from yamaha. When compared to a Mix Wiz and a GL (which is also a noisy console) the yamaha was even noisier. Compared to the 01V it was blatantly obvious. The preamps need to be pushed harder than the others and the hiss gets pretty bad on the yamaha once you hit about 40 or 45 db of gain. Out of curiosity, why would you need to push it harder for a condensor? It should be the other way around unless maybe there is also a phantom power issue I did not detect.

For some people a yamaha N12 may fit the bill if it offers the fetures they need. However, this thread was about higher end stuff than that. People were talking about the Midas and the Toft. I have tons of experience on the venice (maybe 2000 hours mixing on one) and another 100 hours+ on the nicer Midas stuff. Personally, the yamaha N12 does not even come close to touching the quality of even the cheapest Midas, the Venice. The pre's and the EQ's on the Midas are in a whole other league. As a point of reference, I would not have to want to work on a MG series yamaha either. I do have a lot of experience however with 01v's, 02R's, M7's, some on the LS9, PM 4k's, PM 3500's, PM5d's, PM 18000's, 3000's, and even some on older 2k's and 1k's. Any of those other yamaha consoles beat the pants off the sound quality of the N12, of course they also cost more, but not a whole lot more when considering the 01V. Basically, the N12 shares the same structure of the M and MG series. Neither of which are very accepted.
 
So I just went over to Gearslutz to search for the N12 posts. There is one gigantor thread that I just read at least 25 of the pages of. Basically, I don't see much praise at all over there for it either. There are a few people that love it, but from what I can gather, most all of them have never used anything decent anyhow. Most of those posts are from yamaha themselves. What I will say though is that George from yamaha seems very quick to respond to peoples questions and to help them troubleshoot and does it with great patience and undertanding. That is a great sign, but also does not mean anything about the quality of the product itself.
 
xstatic said:
Well, that was my experience with the yamaha N12. For reference, I got mine from yamaha. When compared to a Mix Wiz and a GL (which is also a noisy console) the yamaha was even noisier. Compared to the 01V it was blatantly obvious. The preamps need to be pushed harder than the others and the hiss gets pretty bad on the yamaha once you hit about 40 or 45 db of gain. Out of curiosity, why would you need to push it harder for a condensor? It should be the other way around unless maybe there is also a phantom power issue I did not detect.
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I had to push it harder for my SM81 compared to the AT 4033, not sure why but my Alesis was the same way.

I've ran higher than 40 dB and get no hiss. Very strange.
 
xstatic said:
1: For reference, I got mine from yamaha.
2: I do have a lot of experience however with 01v's, 02R's,


3: Any of those other yamaha consoles beat the pants off the sound quality of the N12,
4: Basically, the N12 shares the same structure of the M and MG series. Neither of which are very accepted.
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1: Please send me an email. I don't remember sending you one and certainly
discussing sound quality. I spoke with all Yamaha dealers that I sent evals to.

2 and 3: That's not my experience. I am the product manager for the MW/MG, n series, 01V and 02r. I work for Yamaha. Maybe you had a broken one or something or a prototype with WAY old firmware, but I would have talked with you.

4: Just not true, sorry. The pre amps are the best we have EVER made.
40 db of gain would only be abot 30% of the knob BTW because the n12 has "84" db of gain.

I'll be glad to discuss the n12 facts with you, but most of what I read is just not true.

Everyone should feel free to express themselves, but at least REALLY try it.

George Hamilton
Product Manager Music Production
Yamaha Corporation of America
 
Welcome to the board, George. I have seen your involvement with the OTHER board and I for one think it's great to have onsite support.

I am interested to hear what comes of this, as I hold xstatic and his opinions here in high regard.


Pete
 
Well, we bought one a couple of months ago, and I just wasn't impressed. When I asked a few months ago I was told told it was similar to the M and MG range with added features. When I say 40 db of gain, I should clarify that meant adding 40 db at the pot, not necessarily 40 db total. I merely expressed what I found when trying it out. So maybe we did have a bad one, but it didn't seem bad, just not any better than other similar offerings. Personally, I liked both the 01V's better. Not that those preamps are stellar, but they kind of stay out of the way. Maybe the noise I heard wasn't just the preamp but the bussing scheme. I did not run the direct outs, just the master and aux outs. I was however farily clear about my experience with it which was in shop testing.

So you are telling me that the preamps in the n12 are better than the PM5k and PM5d's? Or even the M7CL's? I would beleive they may be better than the pm18000's, or maybe even the PM3500 and 4k. My experience with the N12 though definately left me feeling way short of a Midas Venice and even of the Toft console.
 
xstatic said:
Well, we bought one a couple of months ago, and I just wasn't impressed. When I asked a few months ago I was told told it was similar to the M and MG range with added features. When I say 40 db of gain, I should clarify that meant adding 40 db at the pot, not necessarily 40 db total. I merely expressed what I found when trying it out. So maybe we did have a bad one, but it didn't seem bad, just not any better than other similar offerings. Personally, I liked both the 01V's better. Not that those preamps are stellar, but they kind of stay out of the way. Maybe the noise I heard wasn't just the preamp but the bussing scheme. I did not run the direct outs, just the master and aux outs. I was however farily clear about my experience with it which was in shop testing.

So you are telling me that the preamps in the n12 are better than the PM5k and PM5d's? Or even the M7CL's? I would beleive they may be better than the pm18000's, or maybe even the PM3500 and 4k. My experience with the N12 though definately left me feeling way short of a Midas Venice and even of the Toft console.
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First you said this...
Well, that was my experience with the yamaha N12. For reference, I got mine from yamaha. When compared to a Mix Wiz and a GL (which is also a noisy console) the yamaha was even noisier. Compared to the 01V it was blatantly obvious. The preamps need to be pushed harder than the others and the hiss gets pretty bad on the yamaha once you hit about 40 or 45 db of gain. Out of curiosity, why would you need to push it harder for a condensor? It should be the other way around unless maybe there is also a phantom power issue I did not detect.
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now you say you bought it?:confused:

Which is it?

You've got a very nice studio with a D&R Merlin console I'm curious why you would want to mess around with 12 chan mixers. Each to their own but your slamming a nice little mixer that does not create hiss at 45 db at all, or much higher for that matter. And you mentioned in another post you didn't run the direct outs. What direct outs?
 
geosync said:
1: Please send me an email. I don't remember sending you one and certainly
discussing sound quality. I spoke with all Yamaha dealers that I sent evals to.

2 and 3: That's not my experience. I am the product manager for the MW/MG, n series, 01V and 02r. I work for Yamaha. Maybe you had a broken one or something or a prototype with WAY old firmware, but I would have talked with you.

4: Just not true, sorry. The pre amps are the best we have EVER made.
40 db of gain would only be abot 30% of the knob BTW because the n12 has "84" db of gain.

I'll be glad to discuss the n12 facts with you, but most of what I read is just not true.

Everyone should feel free to express themselves, but at least REALLY try it.

George Hamilton
Product Manager Music Production
Yamaha Corporation of America
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Welcome George!
 
I bought my A&H MixWiz 16:2 just to get some decent pres to feed to my Delta 1010. They are a great match as the Delta is just a tad cleaner than the A&H.
With the tilt-up SKB case it's as portable as an old typewriter.
 
therage! said:
First you said this...


now you say you bought it?:confused:

Which is it?

You've got a very nice studio with a D&R Merlin console I'm curious why you would want to mess around with 12 chan mixers. Each to their own but your slamming a nice little mixer that does not create hiss at 45 db at all, or much higher for that matter. And you mentioned in another post you didn't run the direct outs. What direct outs?
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Where does what I said contradict itself? We bought an N12, it didn't fill the needs we wanted it to, so we sold an N12. As far as me tinkering with small consoles, I also run a live sound company. We can never have too many small consoles hanging around for little gigs. If nothing else I use them at places like an air show where it is often handy to have between 6 and 12 little mixers. As for the hiss, I heard what I heard. Maybe it was the summing, maybe it was just the headphone out, the aux out or whatever. The bottom line is that I set up the little yamaha in the shop and compared it directly to the old 01V, the newer 01V96, a Mix wiz and a Mackie CFX 20. The only board that I heard in that test was the Mackie, but thats not fair to the Mackie either because that specific CFX20 is pretty beat up and has seen a lot of dirty dusty environments. I didn't do any tests with an oscilloscope, or anything super scientific like that. I used headphones and a powered speaker. So I didn't notice that it didn't have direct outs... What does that prove? I stated that I did not use the direct outs. Now If I had said that I DID use the direct outputs, that would be something to bring up.

In the end, I am not the one that stepped up raving about the N12 and how incredibly high end it was. You talked about how incredible it was in the midst of a thread concerning what I find to be sonically superior equipment so I spoke my opinion, and thought that I had clearly stated what my opinion was based on. I actually like a few of the other yamaha mixers and have experience with them, as well as did some direct comparisons. I found what I found. I did not intend to say that it was a shitty mixer, a ripoff, or anything like that, just that it did not suit our needs and that in my experience did not hold up against other equipment that I had sitting in front of me. The N12 may be a good value for some people since it rolls so many features in, but that was not what this thread was necessarily about. On of the main features that the original poster was looking for was EQ, not even preamps. The N12 has a very limited EQ section to begin with, and what I heard fromn the EQ was not so impressive either. The thing I liked the best about the N12 was the reverb. I guess in the end we are going to just have to agree to disagree. None of this was meant to be personal, just me sharing my experience. For us, the N12 at what it cost did not make sense.
 
battleminnow said:
I think xstatic is a dealer, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for your insights, both George and xstatic.

Pete
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FYI, I am not a yamaha dealer, although I do have a lot of experience with yamaha consoles in general, from years ago to current. Generally, I have been happy with all of the yamaha digital stuff but definately not as enamoured with their analog stuff. As another point of reference, for digital consoles I have also used the Digidesign Venue, Innovason Grand and Grand Live, and the Digico D5. Just to point out that my experience with digital consoles has not been limited to yamaha, which means that my liking of yamaha digital consoles is based on experience with other ones as well.
 
xstatic said:
So you are telling me that the preamps in the n12 are better than the PM5k and PM5d's? Or even the M7CL's?
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Yes I'm telling you that officially. It's a fact. It's a better and more innovative design that Yamaha is very proud of. Sounds like you are a live guy and this is really a recording mixer. Try it with a ribbon mic or a U47 or a U87 the 01V and the 01V96 won't even proberly power most ribbons without another preamp. The n12/n8 can handle them with ease.

You may not care for it. That's fine. But we also have 01vs 01v96s and 02rs side by side. and some pretty good ears with most of the guys. Certainly with some of our guests.

To each his own. I really don't like to post opinions, but I will always post the facts. We appreciate your love whenever and where ever you give it :)

Sorry for short posts but I just left the Marriott at NAMM. We are setting up the show. It's been a long day and I have to get some sleep and do it again tomorrow.
 
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