Where do I start? Do I bother?

[BeagleFaceHenry]

I have no experience building a studio or working with acoustic treatments.
Here's the situation, we're a rock band with a drum kit, electric bass (Apeg SVT100), guitar (Messa Nomad), Vocals (house PA), and harmonica (small amp/house). We practice/write/record in the same room. It's a great size room to practice in, but a little small to record. The roof is very high, the side wall is very pitched.



We've got a decent, multitrack recording setup. I have 4 mics on the drum kit. The bass is direct. Vocals are direct (however also through the house PA). The guitar and harmonica are through 57s. We record 'live' in the same room. We only overdub solos and backup vocals.
The room gets loud. We're all playing at near performance volume when we record.
The question is, what should we do to the space? We're on a tight budget, maybe $200 now, another $200 in the future. I'd love to cut some of the muddiness out of our recordings. I assume I need bass traps, but where? How many? Is that the best place to start? Should we build a low wall around the drum kit? Will hard walls add echo and reflection and create problems?

 

[RAMI]

We record 'live' in the same room.

Why? You're never going to get good recordings that way. I know you're going to say something about getting a "live feel" and all that, but I don't buy that. Lay down a click track and record properly, you'll be a lot happier with the sound of your recordings.

 

[DM60]

Why? You're never going to get good recordings that way. I know you're going to say something about getting a "live feel" and all that, but I don't buy that. Lay down a click track and record properly, you'll be a lot happier with the sound of your recordings.

Naturally treat the room best you can, if you find reflections, start to treat for that, bass traps, build your own best way to go if you are low on funds. Easy to do it your self.

What Rami said. You can do a click track and then do a scratch track(s) if you need the feel. If you have a DAW, there is no issue putting those tracks over and then having each performance retrack solo and monitor the scratch track. As you record your tracks, scratch track begins to be muted then removed. You can focus on the sound for that instrument, retake, etc. without making the whole band replay because somebody had their heads in the wrong place.

Get your sound treatments going, and change your strategy. You will find a much better results.

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Thanks for your input Rami and DM60. We know the 'live' sound is definitely not the best way to get a good recording but we're sticking with it for several reasons. I also know I may need bass traps and a 'strategy', that's why I asked about bass traps and a 'strategy' in my post.
However, I didn't start this post to be discouraged. I was hoping someone could help with a strategy. I thought that was the point of a forum, to get support and advice from knowledgeable, experienced people. How do I find reflections? If we can only afford a couple bass traps, where is the best place to put them? Is it even worth putting a couple hundred dollars into treatment if we can't put $1,000 in? What should we do 1st? 2nd?
Has anyone been here before? I can find lots of info about how to do it perfectly from the ground up, but not how to make the most of an imperfect situation.
Any proactive advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[RAMI]

However, I didn't start this post to be discouraged. I was hoping someone could help with a strategy. I thought that was the point of a forum, to get support and advice from knowledgeable, experienced people.

How were you discouraged? If people trying to help you through their experience and giving you real help by telling you the truth is discouraging, then you might as well give up now.

I can't believe how sissified the world has become. You can't even tell someone the absolute truth any more without getting accused of "discouraging" them.

There's no good reason to record everything live. None. If there is, I wish you'd share it with us. You said you have various reasons, but failed to share any of them.

Here's some advice that won't make you cry: Put as many bass traps in as many corners (that includes floor/wall and ceiling/wall) as possible. Don't use anything with the word "foam" in it. Use fibreglass panels. You can order them or build them yourself.

You got a lot of help in this thread already. Go ahead with your live recordings, man. It's no skin off my back. See you in a few months when you come back asking why your recordings don't sound anywhere near as good as you were hoping they would.

 

[DM60]

If you start treating the corners with rigid fiberglass (Corning's 703 is a good reference). You might have to order them (6 pack, $120 plus shipping) that would get you started. Put that in as many corners as you can to start working on the bass reflections. The highs you can treat with heavy moving blankets until you can upgrade. Do some test recordings and see where you are at. Bass is the hardest to tame.

You are going to be fitting bleed, so if anyone screws up, you're going to have to retrack. Depending on the screw up, will determine how much you will have to retrack. I do suggest at least the drummer have a click to play to (just giving him headphones and let him play to that). Your editing will be much easier and better.

I have to agree with Rami, nothing was said to discourage. We suggested an approach that will yield you better results. If you take the approach I suggested, you don't have to get everyone together for fixes and takes. Easier to get someone to drop by after work than 4+ people. Just is logistically easier. Plus, when you're doing vocals, you really want that F'in bass or the high hat stomping all over the take? It just gives you options man, options.

Now, let me dust you off, wipe your nose and go out and play. Seriously, nothing was really said that wasn't good pointers. But, do it as you will, but don't get upset if someone tells you your idea is bad.

 

[mjbphotos]

You can build 6 2'x4' bass traps for around $200. Start with that. Move them around, but the corners are a good guess for starting spot. 2" thick 'cloud' on the ceiling, specially above the drums.
Have to agree with everyone regarding the 'live recording' - you're never going to get great results that way in that room. Specially putting everthing through the PA in the corner while you record DI + mics = phase issues and bleed issues.
Oh - turn down the frickin' volume. There's no need to play at gig volume level when recording in a small room.

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Awesome! Thanks mjb and DM, that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for.
What do I make a 'cloud' out of? Do I get it from Apple (jk)?
Are the steep walls a problem? When you say corners, do you mean where 2 walls meet the floors, or speaker level?
Is there any reason to hang plexi or build a low wall around the drum kit?

I am in NO way afraid of taking advice, but yes, it is discouraging to be told there's no reason to record live, and why bother. Please don't call me a sissy just because you don't understand my motivations. That's rude and unsupportive. We have our reasons that I'd be happy to get into if that would make you more comfortable. I'm not looking for a pro quality recording. I didn't ask if pro quality was possible. I asked for help making it the best it can be. I don't think that's grounds for an argument and name calling. Please keep the forum supportive. If you have an answer to the question, please expound, but please don't tell me that what I'm doing is unproductive.

 

[RAMI]

I asked for help making it the best it can be.

...and that's exactly what I gave you. But you chose to whine about it because it's not what you wanted to hear. Make up your mind. You say you want advice to help you make it "the best it can be". Obviously, that's not what you want. You want someone to take you by the hand and tell you what you want to hear. Everyone that posted in this thread agreed and concurred with what I said. The reason for that is because they realize I gave you advice to make it "the best it can be".

I stand by everything I said because I know it's 100% correct, and on top of that, I gave you advice on treating the room. Grow up. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[DM60]

I didn't say unproductive, I said the results would be less than you can achieve by approach modification. Look ma, no money! High results, low cost. I think that was also what you requested.

Lots of old bulls here:

Old bull on the hill, chewing the cud. Young bull runs up to the old bull: "Hey, let's run down there and have our way with one of those cows!"

Old Bull: "No boy, let's walk down there and have our way with them all."

Just sayin'

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Seriously Rami?
Is this really the place for this? What's the deal?
Of course I know doing right from the ground up is the best way. I never said it wasn't. I've worked in pro studios. I get it. I didn't argue with you or imply you don't know what you're talking about. I never asked how to make the best possible recording. ALL I was looking for was advice for what we can do with what we have. We're not trying to re-invent the wheel, or prove that turds can be polished to a high shine. I don't get why you're being so aggressive. WTF? I thought I asked a well thought out, clear, concise question. How can get the best results with what I have? That's all! Does that really merit an argument on a public forum?? If I had asked IF it could be done, and you said "why bother" I'd understand, but I did not. I asked for advice to work with what I have. What's with all the aggression?!?!? Where's the love for fellow musicians? Is this what I get for asking a harmless question to the anonymous internet?

 

[RAMI]

OK...Once again, I'll quote what you said:

I asked for help making it the best it can be.

Now, you're saying this......

I never asked how to make the best possible recording.

Like I said, you're confused or in total denial. Nobody's trying to give you a hard time. Everything I've given was meant to help you, but you seem to only want to hear what you want to hear. We see this 10 times a week around here. You're just way too sensitive, taking things like a 3 year old and contradicting yourself.

Whatever man, knock yourself out. I'm totally convinced you have no idea what you're doing, you're lying when you say you've worked in pro studios, and you're a bit of a whiner.

I've lost interest........Good luck.


(see you when you come back complaining that your recordings are horrible and you can't figure out what you're doing wrong)

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Jiminy Crickets.
Whiner? Total denial? Why throw around insults? Is that helping? Why are you fueling an unnecessary argument?
" Whatever man, knock yourself out. I'm totally convinced you have no idea what you're doing, you're lying when you say you've worked in pro studios, and you're a bit of a whiner."
Is that what you call friendly advice?

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I hoped, but I don't think I was misleading. Yes I did say I wanted it to be the best it could be.....for $200. I was trying to not be too wordy and summarize my situation. I wasn't shooting for an argument. Why do you think it's helpful to call me names?
Of course I have no clue what I'm doing! That's why I'm asking strangers for help! I just said I'm not a professional musician, but yes, I've been in a few pro studios. I'm 38 years old. It's not that big of a deal to get into a studio a few times.

Mods, is there any way to cut all this argument out of the thread and get it down to just topical points??

 

[DM60]

Mods, is there any way to cut all this argument out of the thread and get it down to just topical points??

Actually, this is the process. Just ease back, read what is useful, ignore what is not. These guys know what they are talking about, that just take a direct approach.

With the right setup, you can get pretty good results. People here have a pretty good idea of your expectations even more so that you do. Remember, there are many who come on here with the same approach, only to be disappointed in the results. Just keep that in mind. These guys are just cutting to the point.

 

[RAMI]

I did help you....A LOT! But you choose to ignore the great advice you're getting. The advice I gave you concerning not recording live won't cost you a penny, so $200 has nothing to do with it. You said you wanted advice on how to "make it the best it can be" (Third time I quote YOUR WORDS). You got that and you didn't like it. I gave you advice on how to treat the room, but you seem to want to ignore that too. You said you had reasons to record live even though you don't provide those reason, while in the same breath saying you want it to be the "best it can be".

You got a lot of great advice, but you choose to go into "poor me...why is everyone picking on me" mode, when nobody is picking on you. Everyone, including myself, is helping you immensely. YOU'RE the one that made this a so-called "argument".

So....whiner???? Damn right.

OK...now I'm out.

 

[pegger]

Hi Beagle. Welcome to the forum. I'm a total noob here too, and I figured out very quickly, as has been proclaimed in this thread, that there are some very experienced home recorders here. Nearly every question gets answered here, from the most mundane and pointless, to the most technically advanced issues. So don't get yourself so worked up with some of the answers you get. If you like the answers, go with it. If you don't, then skip on and try again.

I know exactly where you are coming from with your request. It's probably not as much about trying to record the live sound generated in a small box, as much as it is about getting the sound under control. My band uses a 400 sf room to practice in, and we have struggled to get the sound under control. Am I sort of on target here?

Ok...now take the recommendation of sound treatment seriously. The 2'x4' bass traps are a perfect starting point for the $200 budget. I built 4 of them. It was discussed in this thread https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/studio-building-acoustic-treatment/what-should-i-do-roxul-367226/

A couple are hung in corners where bass flutter was really bad. The other two are multipurpose. They can be either hung on the wall, or used as sound mufflers on the floor. I usually put one each in front of the guitar cabs, with a sm57 between the speakers and the trap. Then route the mics to the mixer and control sound more effectively through the floor monitors for the players. The drummer gets a set of headphones mixed to his taste as well. This method lets the guitar players keep their amps up at the levels they like to get the sound they want out of it, without causing a "more me" type battle of guitar cabs.

Then I can tap the mixer by USB to get a "live recording". The quality of these recordings is absolutely ugly, but they serve our band for 2 main purposes.
First, are we playing on a steady tempo and timing.
Second, are we hitting our parts properly and is the "live sound" reasonably balanced how we play it. This part helps us know that our sound , raw from the band, is somewhat ready for handling by the FOH at gigs.

I never share these types of recordings. They are just reference material for the band. Good recordings need to be built properly, and mixed. I still struggle with this aspect, but it's a lot of fun as a hobby for sure, and adds a new level of enjoyment for me with my music.

Cheers,

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Wow. Is this what it's always like here?
Thank you for your time. I greatly appreciate it. I apologize to the forum world. I'm really embarrassed it got this far. I just wanted tips (again, tips from multiple people before you reply and point out that you've given tips. I know you've given tips, but again, I came to the internet to hear from as many people as possible.)

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Thanks Pegger!!!!
That's exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for!

 

[Mr Clean]

I'm curious as to why you don't want to record the instruments separately and get the 'best' possible?

I can't offer advice on the room treatment (that room looks like a nightmare to treat) but I can say I've tried the recording the band all together live route and it's not the best. The best advice I can give is turn stuff down. You don't need to record at massive volume, you'll only add to the kill.

Some isolation would help if possible in any way. Stick the vocalist or amps outside that door. Record a scratch track first maybe to play along to so the singer doesn't have to do it live, then overdub the Vocals. You say you overdub BG Vocals and Solo's, why not overdub more and try to get the best possible with what you've got.

Unless your drummer has great timing, record to a metronome.

I guess it boils down to what you want from the recordings and what you want the recordings for. If you just want to record for yourselves, quick demos to take home and don't really care about the mix/outcome, don't bother treating the room or throwing money at it. Just hit record and play. A load of treatment in a room that size, while recording a full band at volume, isn't really going to do anything that noticeable.

 

[mjbphotos]

Awesome! Thanks mjb and DM, that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for.
What do I make a 'cloud' out of? Do I get it from Apple (jk)?
Are the steep walls a problem? When you say corners, do you mean where 2 walls meet the floors, or speaker level?
Is there any reason to hang plexi or build a low wall around the drum kit?

I am in NO way afraid of taking advice, but yes, it is discouraging to be told there's no reason to record live, and why bother. Please don't call me a sissy just because you don't understand my motivations. That's rude and unsupportive. We have our reasons that I'd be happy to get into if that would make you more comfortable. I'm not looking for a pro quality recording. I didn't ask if pro quality was possible. I asked for help making it the best it can be. I don't think that's grounds for an argument and name calling. Please keep the forum supportive. If you have an answer to the question, please expound, but please don't tell me that what I'm doing is unproductive.

A plexiglass shield around the drummer will isolate his sound somewhat from the microphones that are supposed to be picking up other instruments, that's all.
The cloud would be 2" thick OwensCorning 703, 705 or Roxul (rockwool) - same stuff you use to build bass traps.

If you insist on trying to record 'live'.... we did that in my tribute band just to get some good soundfiles we could use for our website to try to get gigs. The first thing we tried was simple recording the instruments with a little Tascam recorder with built-in mic. We set it up in the middle of the room, recorded a song, thenlistened back, adjusted the position of the recorder, volume of a couple of the instruments, then did it again. Took about 4 tries before we had everything balanced. We had a shield around the drummer and a cloud above him. This was all in a 10' x 20' garage. We had one thing going for this method - we used in-ear monitors, so no PA speakers hooked up. Our singer sang from outside the room - but of course we could hear him in our in-ears.
The singer then took the Tascam instrument recording, loaded it in his computer and recorded the vocals, them mixed them together.