Whats the difference between a Tube MP and an Avalon?

[mgraffeo]

Yo c7sus, FruscianteFan,

you're right. For the most part, you are saying the exact same thing. Just one point of clarification. I tend to agree with FF, that markup is VERY high, on most products (not just in pro audio).

Take that pill you mentioned, which costs about $.05 worth of material, but is being sold at $1.00/pill. There's a reason for the markup. It takes time to design and test that pill. Time where the pill is not making you any money. But you're sure paying people to do the work on it. It also costs money to handle the distribution of the product. Also, it takes a sales force to sell the stuff. There's advertising, product literature, etc.

Anywho, point is that there's lots of costs which are not covered in the "raw materials" which make up the product. These costs should be passed along to the customer, because the company will go out of business otherwise. You can't just pay for the raw materials; you have to pay for the design as well.

The same is true of high end audio. Except, they don't make money back on volume sales. So, they pump quality into the product, and also pump a markup into it. Otherwise, they'd never recoup the cost of getting to the point of selling the product. Remember, they also have to eat the cost of all the parts they throw away, in their rigorous QC checks

I'd be willing to bet that the guess of about $500 worth of parts going into an Avalon is probably pretty close. We pay for the design, the name, the consistency, and the labor, which most people are not willing to (or able to) do themselves.

Universally, if you have the know-how to do the work, you're going to save money going the DIY route. And if it gets you going, it's even better, since you're probably going to enjoy it.

Good luck!

-mg

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

That was ,,,, insightfull, Thanks , ,very well put.

I see your point in paying for more than just the parts and labor, and I guess that IS why we would be better off doing it ourselves if we can pull it off.

 

[acorec]

I have no idea how much it costs Avalon to produce their products.

Avalon is somebody else's example, not mine. I'm speaking in broad terms comparing high-end stuff to "pro-sumer" grade.

You seem to think one pot or resistor or transformer is as good as another.

You couldn't be more wrong.

But don't listen to me. Get a GOOD digital multimeter and check FOR YOURSELF!

Shoot over to RS and buy a bag of their cheapo parts. Then check the values imprinted upon them with your multimeter.

You're in for a surprise.



Go anywhere you like, and spend as much as you like. Cheap to expensive electronic parts will have the same values. 20%, 10%, 5%, 1% parts will read as rated. The expensive parts will be FAR
more reliable and last MUCH longer than the cheap ones. The reliability is the question here. (Hint: A GOOD designer can make a better pre-amp using 10% parts, a great op-amp and design savvy as compared to 1% parts, a great op-amp and a bad design. The money is in the design engineering, good parts, test engineering and solid manufacturing quality. The money is in all of this.

Check out this site. www.mercenary.com

http://www.mercenary.com/policeblotter.html

There are some great articles there about things high-end, from guys that manufacture and use the stuff daily.

This is another excellent source for audio <A TITLE="Click for more information about electronics" STYLE="background-color: #f0f000; " HREF="http://odysseusmarketing.com/walt/go.php?nid=105">electronics</A> info. Be sure to click on the "manuals" pages for each Toolbox for tons more info.

http://www.davisound.com/ToolBoxes.html

 

[Recording Engineer]

Well, I'm certainly NO heayweight, but I suppose I'll weigh-in somewhat...

Let me just say, when it comes to hand-built gear, the most costly is labor, period! And you certainly can be sure that's going to be passed-on to you!

Then there's simply the fact that it IS hand-built and all the REAL GREAT benefits that go with it! That fact alone usually is capitalized upon to its fullest extent with a huge mark-up.

Then, in combination with high hard-costs from using high quality, extremely low tolerance, and hand-matched quality controlled parts, all in low quantity, we're already pretty high with these three considerations alone... And that's assuming they're not using any vintage or custom parts.

Now in comparison with a company trying to manufacture high-quality gear in much higher qualities (such as Avalon), labor costs don't really have much significance at all. And while still using high quality, low tolerance parts with very good quality control, they're buying in MUCH higher quantities, in comparison. I think the huge mark-up is probably a direct result of being one of the nicest-sounding pieces Guitar Mart sells.

In comparison with a company with "low to OK" quality in super high quantities (such as ART), labor or parts costs aren't much an issue at all. Mark-up is probably just as big as anyone elses.

 

[acorec]

Well, I'm certainly NO heayweight, but I suppose I'll weigh-in somewhat...

Let me just say, when it comes to hand-built gear, the most costly is labor, period! And you certainly can be sure that's going to be passed-on to you!

Then there's simply the fact that it IS hand-built and all the REAL GREAT benefits that go with it! That fact alone usually is capitalized upon to its fullest extent with a huge mark-up.

Then, in combination with high hard-costs from using high quality, extremely low tolerance, and hand-matched quality controlled parts, all in low quantity, we're already pretty high with these three considerations alone... And that's assuming they're not using any vintage or custom parts.

Now in comparison with a company trying to manufacture high-quality gear in much higher qualities (such as Avalon), labor costs don't really have much significance at all. And while still using high quality, low tolerance parts with very good quality control, they're buying in MUCH higher quantities, in comparison. I think the huge mark-up is probably a direct result of being one of the nicest-sounding pieces Guitar Mart sells.

In comparison with a company with "low to OK" quality in super high quantities (such as ART), labor or parts costs aren't much an issue at all. Mark-up is probably just as big as anyone elses.

This post is pretty close to the truth about markups. I design electronics for a living and have worked for DBX in the past. What most people don't understand is that labour comes with lots of overhead. Look, one assembler makes maybe $8.00/hr. Add benefits, equipment costs, building costs etc. and each assembler costs like $80.00/hr. Labour in China/Singapore etc. is cheaper, but the overhead is still there in importing, taxes etc. Remember, there is advertising involved too. There is no easy way to manufacture anything and keep consistant quality. The work and money involved is high. True that the markup is two to four times the cost of manufacture, but the profits can be eaten up in a hurry with bad quality and low sales. The components used in any product are usually 1/5 the cost of the product itself. I will tell you that I have seen the profit margin go down the tubes with a poorly designed and badly mismanaged product. These large potential profits are a gamble for any company. Think about it, would you put up your house for collataral in exchange for capital funds to build "the perfect pre-amp at a price anyone could afford"? You have to BUILD and INVEST in the product before you SELL it. How many products do you see that don't sell? THey end up at liquidators for 5 times less that what they would have sold for. So, that is the real deal about products in general.

 

[laaronx]

Wow... it has been a few months since I've been on this forum. At the time I posted some less-than-complementary experiences with the ART Tube MP; seemed that everyone else thought the world of the thing back then. I can't believe how critical the tone has become on these things!
But with respect to the matter at hand... beyond all the technical stuff, the higher price is justified only when the user can detect a beneficial difference. Most cheapo products will get you 90% of the performance of the higher priced stuff- but you pay dearly for the remaining 10%.