Whats the difference between a Tube MP and an Avalon?

[tigerbomb]

Yes, but i just want to know what the difference is in the schematic of a high end tube pre versus that of a low end one. Take away the highpass filter, polarity reverse, pad, everything but the gain knob and the tube. What is the difference between those two stripped down pres? Is there any difference on the schematic? Is it just all component QUALITY that makes the difference? I know I'm ignoring those high quality solid state pres, but let's take this a step at a time.

Hope the following is clearer.

The circuit designs are absolutely and completely different.

In fact, TubeMP is just an inexpensive, cheap opamp based circuit with tube 'mud' circuit added in. It is not a tube micpre by any stretch of imagination. It's designed to be produced in mass cheaply, and they don't sound so good.

It's nothing like any of the higher end Avalon or Vipre or other tube-only/tube-hybrid circuits, which are also all different from each other. They cost more to make, and they tend to sound pretty cool.

 

[ScienceOne]

Ok, I think I'm starting to get it. Well if i came down to the Tampa and the SP VTB-1, what are your thoughts? I know they vary greatly in price, but I want a good, versatile pre that can cover my ass on acoustic guitar, singing, my screaming Mesa Boogie, and my screaming vocalist. I can't always use my ears, they aren't that good yet, and I dont have a chance to listen to a lot of the gear that i lust after in a proper test environment. When youre only 17, workin your ass off to afford the next mic you're jonsing for, you need help. You've all been there. I know when something sounds good, but i cant quite figure out HOW good it sounds, especially compared to the next thing in line (unless that next thing is entirely different). Does Guitar Center allow you to sit there and test mics/pres/processors for an hour and a half until you find what youre looking for? I wouldn't think so, but if they do, someone please tell me. Thanks for all your patient instruction, I'm sucking it up like a sponge.

 

[ScienceOne]

PS- I'm using the XDR's in my Mackie 1604VLZ currently, they sound fine, but sometimes a little flat (to me). Ive used these things for everything since i got the mixer, before that it was an old Tube MP.

 

[alfalfa]

Well if you need the compressor and analog to digital converters then go for the Tampa. Otherwise save your cash and get the vtb-1.

 

[tigerbomb]

I also have a 1402VLZ-PRO I used to record with, and I also came in possession of a VTB-1 lately.

Some might disagree, and this was just my case only. But to me, VTB-1 was a bit narrow ranged especially at the bottom. Made my vocals seemingly clearer but a bit wimpy at the same time. I have never heard Tampa so I don't know about that one.

Frankly, why not just keep using the 1604? What's not working for you? I can't imagine VTB-1 or Tampa giving you an eye opening experience over 1604's pre.

Also, this is just a thought, but if you already have a 1604 and on a limited budget, your money may be better spent on a better mic or improving the acoustics of your recording space. Or a decent compressor like RNC if you your screaming vocalist and Mesa Boogie keep clipping your soundcard input.

Oh, and when I was 17, none of this mattered because there was no home computer and everything went on a 4 track cassette which kept eating all my tapes. Come to think of it, I'm actually kinda glad that my performances from those days are permanently gone, and not preserved in a digital form.....

Best of luck.

 

[echomancer]

...Does Guitar Center allow you to sit there and test mics/pres/processors for an hour and a half until you find what youre looking for?

Does Guitar Center as a whole? Probably not...

BUT!

Here are some key tips I can give you that will help you achieve the ability to do this.

First of all, pick a salesman you like and feel comfortable with, and STICK WITH THEM! I've been dealing with GC for over 6 years now, and have only had two salesmen (the first one left GC for a better job). With either one of them, I know I could have asked to do just about anything and would have been allowed. They didn't have to babysit me, just get the gear I wanted and let me go.

Whether you already have a salesperson you feel loyal to or not, the other key factor is to ask when they're not busy (Sunday-Thursday from about 1-4 or 5). I recently needed to test out some Oktava mics to find a "matched" set, and this took me about an hour to do, and they let me do it.

I've always had GREAT luck w/ the GC Pro Audio guys (Roseville, MI and Cincinnati, OH), but your milleage may vary.

 

[ScienceOne]

Ok, thanks for the GC tip, I'll have to do that (even though its about 30 min away).
Tigerbomb, very insightful advice, thanks a lot. I guess I might just stick with the 1604s for a bit, but I really do want to get one of those high quality pres out there (I long for the detail, depth of sound, and a damn polarity switch). I have been saving up for an RNC, I already have a Behringer MDX2600 that has been OK.
Are the A/D converters in the Tampa the same as the ones in my Delta 410 and my Delta 1010 lt?
I'll keep listening and looking at pres, until I can hear what i want. Until then I guess a good compressor and some more mics. I need some small diaphrams, maybe the C4s or a matched pair of mxl 603s. I've got one 603s from about a year and a half ago and i love it.

 

[ScienceOne]

Wait, if you guys each had to name your favorite preamp in your collection, what would it be?

 

[chessrock]

No one has a favorite preamp in their collection. That's why we're all hanging out here so much. Our favorite mic pre is the one we don't have. Didn't you know that?

Seriously, though, it will very likely depend on the source. I have a favorite preamp right now for accoustic guitar, which is different from my favorite for vocals and so on.

 

[acorec]

Electronically speaking. Take a budget pre (about $100) and a top end pre (those over $1000 units), compare the circuitry. Why is something like the BlueTube or the Tube MP so much cheaper? I heard that the gain isn't actually supplied by the tube, that its all solid state. I just want to know what to look for in a preamp, and what to do if I want to build my own high end pre. Thanks a million. Gordon

Tube amplifiers add even harmonics. These are pleasing to the human ear. Solid state (op-amps, transistors) add odd harmonics. Odd harms are very harsh. When an amplifier starts to clip, the harmonics are added to the signal. Tubes also add natural compression as a result of being overdriven. There is nothing wrong with adding tube harmonics to a solid state amplifier. The problem is that designing such an amp, with high quality sound, is very expensive. The engineering is the expensive thing here.
High end pres also are maed to be very reliable. These are pro units made to run 24/7. The expense really in the manufacuring of a pro amp is in the chassis, PC boards, connectors, switches etc. The pro units use the best quality components and this costs like hell. A great pre can be designed for much less (RNP for example) but, look at the cheap chassis, connectors, outboard PS etc. This proves my point. The RNPs "amp" section is as good as those pro units. But, in pro use, the RNP would not be anywhere near as reliable.

 

[ds21]

Ah yes the days of 4 track cassette:

lets see was that take good enough, or do I re-record over it, should I bounce, and deal with the added noise, should I use my other dynamic mic, try the onboard two band shelveing E.Q.... Wow the Possibilities are endless

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

well well well

Just the subject I have been doing tons of reasearch on science one. First of all let me give you much praise for being 17, and loving you music enough to dive in and start worrying about in-depth shit like micpre's. most teens that play these days just worry about getting on stage to impress there high school, and have a local following just long enough too screw a couple of cheerleaders.

But anyway, I too like yourself wondered the same thing when I started recording,, "why on earth does a mic amp cost soo much money??? Well just think about your mesa boogie that you have, that thing is at least $1000 dollars. Well a hard fact I had to come to know is that, Mics need good amps too. I bet you like the kind of Nu metal sound that mesa kicks out,,,(personally I dont) but thats just mee. Think if you tried to write some of your music on a 100 dollar 10watt crate amp from a pawn shop? Yea it WOULD sound like shit.

So now the price,, ,heres the kicker ,,, I know the real question you are asking. Its is the components, parts, labor, really THAT much more expensive than a 2 or 3 hundred dollar amp? The answer is NO! I used to work for a company called Mojotone, and we built amplifiers for trace elliot and gibson. I built the gibson goldtones all day long, the price on those is anywhere from $1000 to $3000 dollars. WOW crazy , cause I seen the invoice for how much the parts costed and the $3000 dollar one Costed gibson about $300 dollars........

Crazy huh?

Well mic pres are the same way, I bet that 2000 dollar avalon costs about 200 dollars in parts and labor to build. Thats just capitalizm buddy. Those guys are right ,, its the SOUND they know you will pay for,, it doesnt matter the parts or schematic. Its the SOUND they know you want, and thats what they know you will work overtime for.

BUT ,, I happen to have schematics and layouts for a Neve 1073 pre amp... And I have almost got the schematic for the Universal Audio 2/610,, which is an awesome tube micpre that is wayyy better than the avalon.

What do ya say we go in buisness together and slay the evil empires of the preamp world ,, muahahahahah

but anyway ,,, you should go down to guitar center and test every preamp they have,,, (I did) and it gave me all the answers I needed about whats worth the money , and whats not,,, my conclusions where ,, you get what you pay for!!!!!!

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

yess guitar center does let you test them. I noticed that you live in North Carolina,,,well I live in winston salem and drive down to the one in charlotte,, and they have tons to test out ,,even the avalon you was wondering about

 

[ScienceOne]

Wow man, we should hang out sometime, I'm just north of Charlotte.
I think I'm much more willing to build a neve copy than plunk down my hard earned cash for an overpriced pre. Not that I don't want the overpriced pre (and will eventually purchase many of them), but its just not economically sensible right now.
I would definetly not say that I'm a nu-metal fan, just to clear one thing up.
What music are you into? I just saw the Used up at Ziggy's, your neck of the woods.
Any way I could get those burdensome scematics off of your hands? hehe
By the way, I'm in a punk/hardcore band called old fashioned, I doubt you have heard of us (especially if you aren't into that music) but we have a pretty loyal following around here. www.oldfashioned.tk

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

Sure sounds kool

yea we should get together sometime talk about recording and maybe we could build a couple of mic pres together. Not many of my friends are into that, so its pretty kool to meet someone who is. I am just like you, I am struggling to build a setup that will do my music justice and not degrade it. I am really sorry for stereo typing you as a nu metal typical teen, forgive me dude, im just really jaded with all of the ummm crappy wanna be mtv stars around the high schools. Im 22 years old, and it just seems that every generation gets just gayer and gayer ,, until music just turns into an exuse to wear certain clothes. ,, but any ways ,, sorry for that , I like the used too.,, im sure you are into some pretty kool stuff,,, my email is deadboyy99@yahoo.com.. let me know when your band is playin I will go see ya play.

later

 

[tigerbomb]

Ahem. There's a fundamental difference between a guitar amp and a micpre.

Guitar amp's are inherently lo-fi. It's gotta be lo-fi. Lo-fi is *cool* on a guitar. In fact, the sound of a good guitar amp is the result of dialing-in the lo-fi ness to where it sounds good.

This isn't achieved by using rock stable Power supply that costs 100 times more than a wall wart, or low noise components that are 50 times more expensive than the general purpose kind - which would often be the case in micpres.

If you looked inside an Avalon or any of the highend pres, you'd know. A micpre caters to a completely different purpose and goal at a different cost structure than a guitar amp.

 

[ScienceOne]

Ok, some of you talk highly of the Avalons, while someone else just said its basically an MP in a champagne chassis. Anyone know the truth?
Aside from that, you have to understand that Frusciante is a guitar amp expert, he didn't build avalons or neves. But I think we can all agree that dealer/manufacturer markups are quite significant when compared to the acutal parts/labor costs. Look at the prescription medicine industry, most of those $50-$100 bottles of pills cost in the neighborhood of $.50-$5 to manufacture. I know medicine is nothing like a mic pre (although an API would cure what's been ailing me), but it's a sensical analogy.
I'll gladly build a mic pre before I just buy one, mainly because I want to know how/why they work (which is why I started this thread), but also cause I want to save a little/lot of cash. Someday I'll gladly buy one before building one, I'm sure.
Toroidal transformers are in mic pres too? I thought that was just in poweramps because they needed to up the power so greatly. Maybe I'm just used to looking in crappy pres so I've never seen one in there? Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough? Are there toroidal transformers on every channel in a mackie/any other mixer?
I think my question mark key is starting to short out.

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

I have looked inside a highend mic pre,,, how do you think im getting the schematic for the universal audio pre.

Look guys I know guitar amps, are deferant in parts, I just used it as an example.. and yes the 200 was a slight exaggeration. Its really probibly about 1 or 2 hundred off.

And for you that think you know what a high end micpre really is,, im sorry your just another chump being fooled by the marketing aspect of it...

Yes I have looked up torodial transformers, if you order them from china its not bad at all. Look if a dc circuit calls for say 20 volts of ac power from the transformer to the diodes to be rectified,, then thats it,,,, 20 volts is 20 volts,, the power transformer is just 2 poles wrapped in extremly fine hookup wire.
You people just think that you can order a jensen transformer and its going to give 20 volts of SPECIAL TONE SHAPING ELECTRICITY current to go to the diodes. marketing has gotten you to beleave that even electricity has a name brand.


Hell you can even build the transformers by hand and it would save a ton of money,,, how do you think guitar pick ups are hand wound???? with the same extremly fine hook up wire. yes there are differances in quality of the build of the transformers,,, if the poles are slighty uneven, or too much resistence here not enough there. And can you tell me what part of the audio spectrum will suffer if the transformer is built a little shotty??? can ya mr preamp specialist??? The bottom end ,, it will affect its lo freq.


THE BOTTOM LINE ,, ,high end or not high end....

IT has a circuit, some pots, and a chassis,,, which comes probibly to a manufacturing cost of around 100 dollars.

the only expensive things are the transformers!!!!

and those are NOT $700 dollars a piece ,, im sorry. cause thats what the price is saying!!!

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

sorry about being snippy

But I thought I did say that the windings of the transformers have an affect on the overall sound??? I thought I pointed that out. maybe I didnt make it clear, I think I was too busy being mad because I know the markup on these things , I know that a transformer doesnt cost 700 or more dollars. No matter where its made or how much precision goes into the transformer. But I think we agree , with each other ,, for the most part?? I think?

I did not mean to come across like all tranformers are the same,, im just saying that no matter how there made or where there made ,, its still just wire?? wrapped wire??? And I know for a fact that these hi fi , low noise , super precision transformers, do not cost $700 dollars and up.

come on man ,, at least agree with me on the cost of the circuit,,, the next thing your going to tell me the resisters they use cost 10 dollars a piece??

add up the price of a avalon 737, which is $2000 dollars,,

think about what it is??

a circuit board
some pots
a chassis

how much is that ???? I know guitar chassis were 40 dollars a piece to make ,, now there is alot more metal there than in a half metal half plastic micpre chassis.

and pots ,, come on pots are pots

a resisters , caps, on a board ,,, ?? all of that is about $100 dollars..

so your saying that the power transformer is $1000 dollars????

I am sorry , I dont want to fight on this thread ,, I just cant believe it ,, I think there is a %300 percent markup

 

[Frusciante_Fan]

ahahahahah that was pretty good

I dont think your a jerkoff , I dont claim to be an expert.

But I am a realist, I guess me and you just dont see eye to eye.

but oh well.

Let me ask you this though ,, in your opinion can you give me your estimation of how much it cost avalon to make the product,, just parts, and labor?


P.S
And dont put avalon off as a company that wouldnt slave out work, or order pre assemble parts. ANd oh yeaa ,, dont put it past them to order parts from china either...
Cause I can tell ya a few so called "Quality" based Audio Companies that do all of those things.