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jaz49
New member
You must have read my mind! I'm looking into a Rane ms-1b at the moment which has 66db gain...or maybe the DMP3. That might make a good combination with the SM7 for a mostly untreated space.
You must have read my mind! I'm looking into a Rane ms-1b at the moment which has 66db gain...or maybe the DMP3. That might make a good combination with the SM7 for a mostly untreated space.
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soundchaser59
Reluctant Commander
That may be true, but it wont cut out as much room junk as a dynamic. Even though it is a cardioid pattern and not a hypercard, the SM7 is an excellent choice. I wish everyone could afford to get one. With a decent preamp and gain, the SM7 will do softer acoustic and vocals just as well as most of the budget variety condensors ever will. Is the rest of your gear of such high caliber that you will hear the difference between a condensor recorded vocal and a dynamic recorded vocal when you listen to your final mix?? I recently tried recording vocs with an SM7 and an AT4033 at the same time, and I ended up mixing the vocal track about 80% SM7 and 20% 4033. My voice sux, but reviewers say it's the best vocal mix I've done so far. I think it's the SM7 that they like. But I have been reminded several times recently that the right mic is the one that ends up giving you the sound you want.
darrin_h2000
Banned
The 4033 picks up every nuance of your voice...the SM7 doesnt...its like it will filter out some of the stuff...lol.
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quickmill
Member
Are you REALLY saying it's hard to tell the difference between a condenser and a dynamic?
darrin_h2000
Banned
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soundchaser59
Reluctant Commander
Dont take my words out of context. Is that REALLY what you read up above?
Are you saying you CAN listen to any final mix posted on any of these forums and you CAN tell which vocal tracks were done with condensors and which were done with dynamics?
If we did one song, identical in every way except one has the vocs recorded with a good dynamic and the other has the same vocs recorded with a budget condensor, you think you would always be able to tell which one was which?
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quickmill
Member
Why did you mix 20% 4033 with your sm7b? Did it add something the sm7 didn't have on it's own?
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quickmill
Member
And by the way, I'm sure I couldn't always tell the difference in a final mix. I know I spend too much time obsessing about things that have little or no impact on a final mix. I take comfort in the fact that I'm not alone though.
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jaz49
New member
I just got a very good deal on a Rane ms-1b, so I'll see how my current dynamic mics sound with that before deciding on a SM-7 or something else. Taking some small steps towards addressing the room problem... put some large cup hooks on the ceiling to hang some quilts...may try the mattresses in the corner if that doesn't help. Thanks to all for the great suggestions.
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jaz49
New member
Interesting...if it might be a challenge to tell which mic was which, I would imagine it would be even more of a challenge if you did the same test with two different preamps...I'm talking any two pres like DMP3 and above in price....in the mix not soloed tracks. I think we tend to obsess about stuff that the average listener probably couldn't hear even if a gun was put to their head.
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Weasel9992
New member
That would be a very, very tough thing to test objectively. They'd have to be rough tracks, no processing of any sort...when you changed mics you'd have to be able to ensure that everything else was exactly the same. You could put a mark down to position the vocalist with *some* prevision, but gain levels would have to be precisely the same too. If you got both of those things close to exact, I think I could probably pick the condenser vs. the dynamic 7 times out of 10. They really do sound very different much of the time.
Frank
Frank
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soundchaser59
Reluctant Commander
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
I'll check it out, Soundchaser! I got my D3800 new in the flight case for $100, and they had one on display during the President's Day sale for $50. No kidding. I've been discussing it off-line w/ Jaz. It was introduced as a $375-or-so high end dynamic, but it didn't sell to the Zack Wilder fan club. I picked it up because I was recording a Science Fiction radio play for a producer friend of mine. It calls for a lot of simultaneous open mics, and I needed to expand my dynamic options.
"What the hell?", I figured- a dynamic that comes with a flight case for $100 is probably a pretty good $100 dynamic. It surprised me, in both good and bad ways. It is a hypercardioid, and it will reject most off-axis stuff really well. It is highly feedback resistant. It also sounds like a condenser, like a Sennheiser MD441, clear and detailed. You would never guess that it was a dynamic. That's the upside. Now the downside- It is a pretty unforgiving sucker. The proximity field is abrupt, and the pickup field narrow. To use it as a vocal mic, you have to have very good technique, and *stop moving around*! It turned out that it was not very usable for the radio play- one, because the vocal talent wasn't good enough to use it, and two, because its clarity and detail made it jump out from the other dynamics in the mix, as if I had stuck a C414 in with a bunch of SM58's.
Well, I can always find some use for a good mic, even if it isn't what I had intended. I can sing with it, but in a live setting I want a mic where I can move more, especially because I play guitar. I use an SM7 for a live mic and it is forgiving as hell. It doesn't produce the clarity and detail of the tripower, but that isn't necessarily what I'm looking for, either, or I would be using a condenser, like a C535 or KMS105. I'll tell you what the thing is great for- it's a *stellar* live piano mic, and I should've bought that other one for $50, to have a pair. It's excellent on live cello, or anything that doesn't move around much.
That's what made me think of it as an option for Jaz's problem. It won't pick up much of the room, and it would give him the clarity and detail he's looking for- if, and only if- he's got the vocal chops to use it. It is also, as I noted above, prone to popping if you get into that nasty proximity field, and I wound up using it with a pop filter in the studio. I'll say this- in its own way, it's a great mic, but it isn't a tool for a beginning vocalist.-Richie
"What the hell?", I figured- a dynamic that comes with a flight case for $100 is probably a pretty good $100 dynamic. It surprised me, in both good and bad ways. It is a hypercardioid, and it will reject most off-axis stuff really well. It is highly feedback resistant. It also sounds like a condenser, like a Sennheiser MD441, clear and detailed. You would never guess that it was a dynamic. That's the upside. Now the downside- It is a pretty unforgiving sucker. The proximity field is abrupt, and the pickup field narrow. To use it as a vocal mic, you have to have very good technique, and *stop moving around*! It turned out that it was not very usable for the radio play- one, because the vocal talent wasn't good enough to use it, and two, because its clarity and detail made it jump out from the other dynamics in the mix, as if I had stuck a C414 in with a bunch of SM58's.
Well, I can always find some use for a good mic, even if it isn't what I had intended. I can sing with it, but in a live setting I want a mic where I can move more, especially because I play guitar. I use an SM7 for a live mic and it is forgiving as hell. It doesn't produce the clarity and detail of the tripower, but that isn't necessarily what I'm looking for, either, or I would be using a condenser, like a C535 or KMS105. I'll tell you what the thing is great for- it's a *stellar* live piano mic, and I should've bought that other one for $50, to have a pair. It's excellent on live cello, or anything that doesn't move around much.
That's what made me think of it as an option for Jaz's problem. It won't pick up much of the room, and it would give him the clarity and detail he's looking for- if, and only if- he's got the vocal chops to use it. It is also, as I noted above, prone to popping if you get into that nasty proximity field, and I wound up using it with a pop filter in the studio. I'll say this- in its own way, it's a great mic, but it isn't a tool for a beginning vocalist.-Richie
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jaz49
New member
I was hoping to luck out and pick one up cheap, but they seem to be selling for around $200. I don't move around when I sing, but I'm a little worried about it being so unforgiving of poor technique. If I could get one cheap enough I'd definitely give it a try, since it's hypercardiod and probably a step up from what I have now.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Well, what the hell, Jaz. You seem like a regular guy who's fretting the problem. Tell you what- Send me an email with a secure mailing address, and I'll ship mine to you. If it solves your problem, maybe we can negotiate a price, or I can find you one cheap. If it doesn't solve the problem, insure it for $100 and ship it back. It's a mic I don't use that much, but I'm really curious to finf out if it would work for you. Call it matchmaking.-Richie
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quickmill
Member
Jaz, this sounds like a worthwhile endeavor to me.
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jaz49
New member
Now that sounds like an offer I can't refuse...thanks much! If it works out I'll sell my Heil and buy the D3800, either from you or a new one.
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soundchaser59
Reluctant Commander
Sounds like something I could use. I am not a great singer, but I am very good at finding something that works and then repeating/duplicating it precisely over and over. Which means I dont move around when I sing, and a few of the singers I would try it with are conditioned not to move around much, or they hold the mic in a certain way and they dont change. Or I simply put the mic where I want it then tell them, "Stand HERE, if you move I'll shoot!" 
I'd be willing to test drive one if you can still find one at that price.
I'd be willing to test drive one if you can still find one at that price.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Well, I checked my GC this morning, and they have now successfully blown them out. Out of stock. The last one went for $50 on "the list". Oh well, the experiment is now underway. I shipped mine to Jaz this morning for an audition, so we'll get another person's perspective on it. For all I know, he'll think I'm out of my mind. More to follow after Jaz auditions the mic.-Richie
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soundchaser59
Reluctant Commander
I was ready to buy one for $50 bucks from a used retailer in Woodbury Minn, but I called them and they said something which scared me away. I asked them if they tested it, and they were - fortunately - honest enough to tell me that the mic worked fine in a couple of mixers, but didn't work at all when tested in a couple of other mixers. They say other mics work ok in those mixers, but the D3800 did not work with just any mixer they plugged it into.
So I passed. If I could test it myself in hand, I'd probably do it, but I've learned the hard way to avoid "borderline deals" online.
Maybe I'll watch ebay for a used one. It's not urgent for me, I'm just interested in having something decent other than the mainstream SM58 to use on stage when the occasion arises. And I've learned that the majority of hand held condensors seem to pick up way too much ambient stage noise - i.e., the rest of the band - for my needs. I think a hand held condensor would be great, for example, with a performer who is primarily a voice + acoustic instruments act. I would be interested in anything decent (my budget for this is <$200) that isn't made in China, that fits the criteria of the original post.
So I passed. If I could test it myself in hand, I'd probably do it, but I've learned the hard way to avoid "borderline deals" online.
Maybe I'll watch ebay for a used one. It's not urgent for me, I'm just interested in having something decent other than the mainstream SM58 to use on stage when the occasion arises. And I've learned that the majority of hand held condensors seem to pick up way too much ambient stage noise - i.e., the rest of the band - for my needs. I think a hand held condensor would be great, for example, with a performer who is primarily a voice + acoustic instruments act. I would be interested in anything decent (my budget for this is <$200) that isn't made in China, that fits the criteria of the original post.