Vivek Ramaswamy - Rock Star

TAE said:
Is this it?

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Yeah, he identifies leftist crap but the sloganeering is tedious. Faith and patriotism aren't at all connected but it's part of the "God and country" John Wayneism he's evoking. It would be fine with me if everyone in America tomorrow declared themselves an atheist. The Constitution wouldn't have to be altered at all.

"We hunger to be part of something larger than ourselves" - what's that mean? Any statist dictator would say the same thing.
 
brassplyer said:
Faith and patriotism aren't at all connected but it's part of the "God and country" John Wayneism he's evoking.
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"In God We Trust" -- do we re-mint all those coins? (Or go digital currency?)
"Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society." ~George Washington. It must have seemed frightfully important to them back then, and I don't remember the "God Myth" being de-bunked.
 
Serendipity Records said:
"In God We Trust" -- do we re-mint all those coins? (Or go digital currency?)
"Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society." ~George Washington. It must have seemed frightfully important to them back then, and I don't remember the "God Myth" being de-bunked.
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IGWT wasn't added until the 1860s. "Under God" was added to the pledge in the 50s as a bit of McCarthyist propaganda - the US is a nation under a constitution not a deity.

Washington's personal religious beliefs have no bearing on patriotism.

The only mentions of religion in the Constitution are exclusionary - no state religion, no religious test to hold office - the SCOTUS has struck down attempts to subvert this. Jesus, Christ, Christian, Bible, references to scripture appear nowhere in the text of the Constitution. Religion is given no force of law. Some charters of the colonies did contain such references - the reason such references were omitted from the Constitution wasn't because the Framers forgot.

Those commie leftists wanted Thomas Jefferson redacted from American History textbooks because they hate the true spirit of America and all it stands for. Oh wait, no it was the Christian conservative element of the Texas school board who doesn't like the reality of Jefferson's thoughts on religion which undermine their "America is a Christian nation" false narrative. Jefferson thought the Bible was largely a compendium of nonsense. He liked certain things attributed to the alleged figure of Jesus but didn't believe that if he ever actually existed that he was connected to a deity. No Jesus - God connection, no biblical Christianity.

One's religious beliefs confer no special status regarding citizenship, religious belief while protected isn't a necessary part of being an American. Religious beliefs have been ruled to be subordinate to US law - you can't withhold medical treatment from your child because you think your religion requires it.
 
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There is a difference between religion and a belief in God. (A god - I rarely capitalize the word but considering the context I will make an exception.) Not disputing anything brassplyer has said here just re-emphasizing the notion of the Founders/Framers as theists. Just look at the Declaration of Independence - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator..." Creator. They believed in some deity. The fact that any of us may not does not nullify what the guys that wrote the fuckin' thing believed. I may not hold with their beliefs but I'll give them credit for the founding principles they came up with.
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
There is a difference between religion and a belief in God. (A god - I rarely capitalize the word but considering the context I will make an exception.) Not disputing anything brassplyer has said here just re-emphasizing the notion of the Founders/Framers as theists. Just look at the Declaration of Independence - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator..." Creator. They believed in some deity. The fact that any of us may not does not nullify what the guys that wrote the fuckin' thing believed. I may not hold with their beliefs but I'll give them credit for the founding principles they came up with.
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Things get problematic when tossing around undefined terms and trying to conflate terms.

"Creator" and "Nature's God" are an acknowledgement that man comes from somewhere which is self-evident. Trying to conflate the general notion that there are governing forces in the universe with "religion" just doesn't hold water. It also still has no bearing on one's patriotism. The core principle of America has nothing whatsoever to do with religious belief.

The religious will try to co-opt Einstein because of his use of the word "God" but he explicitly and unambiguously rejected Jewish and Christian notions of a personal god that concerned itself with the lives of mankind. He rejected the label of atheist because he didn't want the social baggage associated with it but he was *not* an ally of the religious.

What the Ramaswamy video is trying to do is promote the idea of "faith" - as in kneeling before a deity kind of faith - as if it's something central to being an American when it has nothing whatsoever to do with being an American. It's pretty transparent that he's pandering to a certain audience that embraces this myth. Btw Ramaswamy is Hindu not a Christian.

He says we can be one people again - more sloganeering evoking a myth. When has the US ever been "one people"?
 
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TAE said:
Not sure why you would bring Jesus into this but since you did. Him being God incarnate knew that he needed to complete his mission before he hit 35 ( all downhill after that) and scripted it out so he exited at 32.
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I didn't, but now that you bring that up... it's too bad he didn't bite the bullet earlier in life... then we may have all been saved from his "followers" bullshit in life...

brassplyer said:
IGWT wasn't added until the 1860s. "Under God" was added to the pledge in the 50s as a bit of McCarthyist propaganda - the US is a nation under a constitution not a deity.

Washington's personal religious beliefs have no bearing on patriotism.

The only mentions of religion in the Constitution are exclusionary - no state religion, no religious test to hold office - the SCOTUS has struck down attempts to subvert this. Jesus, Christ, Christian, Bible, references to scripture appear nowhere in the text of the Constitution. Religion is given no force of law. Some charters of the colonies did contain such references - the reason such references were omitted from the Constitution wasn't because the Framers forgot.

Those commie leftists wanted Thomas Jefferson redacted from American History textbooks because they hate the true spirit of America and all it stands for. Oh wait, no it was the Christian conservative element of the Texas school board who doesn't like the reality of Jefferson's thoughts on religion which undermine their "America is a Christian nation" false narrative. Jefferson thought the Bible was largely a compendium of nonsense. He liked certain things attributed to the alleged figure of Jesus but didn't believe that if he ever actually existed that he was connected to a deity. No Jesus - God connection, no biblical Christianity.

One's religious beliefs confer no special status regarding citizenship, religious belief while protected isn't a necessary part of being an American. Religious beliefs have been ruled to be subordinate to US law - you can't withhold medical treatment from your child because you think your religion requires it.
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Well, would you look at that? We can finally agree on something. (2 things? The other had to do with making music, I think...)
 
Ujn Hunter said:
Well, would you look at that? We can finally agree on something. (2 things? The other had to do with making music, I think...)
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I go by what I deem rational and logical not a party line. Religion doesn't seem rational. While I obviously don't hold with the Bible-thumping element of the right the current agenda of the Democrat party is a lot worse if the prosperity and safety of America is the goal.

None of the reasons anyone would choose Biden over Trump are good ones.
 
Ujn Hunter said:
There is no good reason in choosing Trump at all, however... If Bin Laden were running against Trump, you should still not choose Trump... I'm sorry. I'm sorry more people didn't choose Hilary when given the choice over Trump. I'm sorry.
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I've concluded that you're trolling.
 
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brassplyer said:
"Creator" and "Nature's God" are an acknowledgement that man comes from somewhere which is self-evident. Trying to conflate the general notion that there are governing forces in the universe with "religion" just doesn't hold water. It also still has no bearing on one's patriotism. The core principle of America has nothing whatsoever to do with religious belief.
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator..."We know most of the founding fathers were members of some form of Christianity. Their intention was to make it clear that each man had the freedom to choose whatever they wanted to believe as far as religion goes. But they definitely also made it clear for those that read this declaration that they themselves believed we were created by a creator...a deity.
 
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