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Greg_L
Banned
Amen.
Amen.
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mtomlins
New member
Good, long thread discussion - enough to make me come out of lurking and post two ideas from my experience:
1) my playing is different at volume...decibels inspire! Honestly. If I'm headed out to jam or play after not playing at-volume for a long while, it's intimidating and takes some adjustment. And it is precisely that impact that makes my playing "better" and more satisfying to me and to my very few audiences. The increased volume and immediacy of SOUND that loops back through my ears, to my brain, correlated to my fingers - that seems to be a more intimate and romantic (platonically, mind you) to me. Playing at lower volume or through the cans isn't the same.
2). I've used both real tube and early-model sims (COSM, ToneLab, SansAmp/Tech21) and all of them at-volume through a PA type monitor lacked responsiveness for articulated playing. Legato chords sound rich, sure. But a single not bend lacked the "umph" I came to love even from a small combo tube amp. Yes, the impulses from Kemper are a quite different approach from the old stuff. The audible difference may be negligible to even the most experienced ears in the biz (see Michael Waegner notes on GearSlutz) And even the old approaches to sims are benefitting from upgraded circuits and chips. Even as the technology changes, IMHO it might never replace the romantic quality of real amp and cab cranked up.
PS - I have not personally committed nor do I encourage anyone to physically express romantic intimacy with your amp,,,not that there's anything wrong with that. Just smell the hot tubes.
1) my playing is different at volume...decibels inspire! Honestly. If I'm headed out to jam or play after not playing at-volume for a long while, it's intimidating and takes some adjustment. And it is precisely that impact that makes my playing "better" and more satisfying to me and to my very few audiences. The increased volume and immediacy of SOUND that loops back through my ears, to my brain, correlated to my fingers - that seems to be a more intimate and romantic (platonically, mind you) to me. Playing at lower volume or through the cans isn't the same.
2). I've used both real tube and early-model sims (COSM, ToneLab, SansAmp/Tech21) and all of them at-volume through a PA type monitor lacked responsiveness for articulated playing. Legato chords sound rich, sure. But a single not bend lacked the "umph" I came to love even from a small combo tube amp. Yes, the impulses from Kemper are a quite different approach from the old stuff. The audible difference may be negligible to even the most experienced ears in the biz (see Michael Waegner notes on GearSlutz) And even the old approaches to sims are benefitting from upgraded circuits and chips. Even as the technology changes, IMHO it might never replace the romantic quality of real amp and cab cranked up.
PS - I have not personally committed nor do I encourage anyone to physically express romantic intimacy with your amp,,,not that there's anything wrong with that. Just smell the hot tubes.
rpm61
Person of interest
I have been using a sim lately, had to sell my amp a couple years ago when I lost my biz. I used to have a 60s Fender Super Reverb and would never have dreamed of playing un-amped, but I can't afford a rich-man amp for what they go for these days. I use guitar rig 5 now and it sounds pretty good through a PA. I don't know how close it is, I'd have to hear them side-by-side I guess, but it feels good as long as I have a cab behind me. I can't deny the flexibility though, more effects possibilities than I ever had or will ever have time to explore I reckon. But I love that side of it for sure, it opens up so many possibilities, especially when you throw in modulation and automation. I was starting to feel like everything that could be done with a guitar and amp had been done, I don't feel like that now. I just can't help thinking that there are always those who resist the new, I'm sure there were guys in the 30s saying "You won't catch ME with an electric geetar, that aint pickin'!" I still want an amp, but I think I would probably end up using both now, or maybe not. To me rockin is doing whatever you want anyway, and plugging my crappy laptop into a PA when I have no other way seems raw enough to me. Someday all this shit will be old-fashioned too, maybe then it will be cool.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
My uncle isn't too much older than I, and to this day he has a pretty low opinion of electric guitarists. In his opinion it's just too easy to make it sound good with all the compression and added sustain. It actually takes skill to make an acoustic sound good. I'm honestly not sure that I can argue with him on that point.
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Sudsy100
New member
One thing that's making major inroads lately is lower wattage tube amps . . . for both studio and live work. I have three Phaez amps . . . an 18W EL84 JTM style, a 25W 6V6 special higher-gain build, and a 30W-ish KT66 Super Lead based style. Either one is easily loud enough for most club gigs (I usually use a dual-rig setup), but they all work fantastic in the studio as well. With one good speaker in a 1x12, the sound is easily enormous enough for anything you'd want to commit to tape (or 0's & 1's).
Just like Greg, I love to haul out a 4x12 with a JCM 800 KT88 2204, any one of three Hiwatts, a 5150, or even a Rocker 30. I have to admit, either of those are virtually perfect, but with the way things are mixed these days, the lower wattage tube amps do the trick to a "T".
I'm not against virtual amps in principle at all. When it's all said and done the finished product is very good, but for some of us, feeling the mojo of the tubes is a huge part of the overall.
Just like Greg, I love to haul out a 4x12 with a JCM 800 KT88 2204, any one of three Hiwatts, a 5150, or even a Rocker 30. I have to admit, either of those are virtually perfect, but with the way things are mixed these days, the lower wattage tube amps do the trick to a "T".
I'm not against virtual amps in principle at all. When it's all said and done the finished product is very good, but for some of us, feeling the mojo of the tubes is a huge part of the overall.
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UVBlues
New member
LOL! I'm old enough to remember when Dylan was booed and heckled for coming on stage with an electric guitar. Time moves forward.
I have hauled around everything from a VOX Super Beatle with a 4X12 cab to a full Marshal stack to two Fender Super Twin Reverbs. Now... It's an iPad, Amplitube and an FCB1010. Time moves forward. Sound is great and my back says thanks. Purists are generally stuck in time and the bounds of their own closed minds. Lol...
I have hauled around everything from a VOX Super Beatle with a 4X12 cab to a full Marshal stack to two Fender Super Twin Reverbs. Now... It's an iPad, Amplitube and an FCB1010. Time moves forward. Sound is great and my back says thanks. Purists are generally stuck in time and the bounds of their own closed minds. Lol...
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Greg_L
Banned
You say purists are stuck in time, but you also (twice) said time moves forward, so according to your logic, purists must be at the forefront. So where does that leave you and your iToy?
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moresound
Loud Sun Studios
Virtual black holes are everywhere.
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Jazzman1949
New member
Dude, how OLD are you? Nice stack. I've got one, too. AND I use sims. And I'm working on my 5th album. Grow up.
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Jazzman1949
New member
Greg - how do you get your head through the doorway, forget the equipment….
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Greg_L
Banned
I just walk right through. Thanks for asking.
New Guy
New member
Ok, I finally have a little time to sit down and respond to Pinky's question and what started the thread. And so everyone else is clued in as well, I had posted a little rough mixed tune I engineered for a client. In the description in the soundcloud link I put that all of the instruments were miked and not virtual amps or drum triggers. This triggered a response from those who were kind enough to listen and respond. Some took as a derogatory remark towards those that do use virtual simulators, and some took it as I need to get up to speed with technology. Here is my response. There is a place for virtual amp simulators and I have nothing against them. However, let me use my current client as an example. He is an accomplished guitarist (jazz/fusion)he has been honing his craft for nearly 30 years. During this time he has developed his "tone". As he has developed as a guitarist , he has moved into different amps. Now at this stage of his career, he has chose an amp that responds the way he needs it to. It is a key part of his "tone". One of my key strengths is my knowledge and ability to track electric guitars, which is why he chose me to track his new cd. The truth is, for clients like this, there aren't very many studios (in my area), that can provide that service. But, I am not saying that virtual instruments have no part in modern recordings, depends on the artist. Keep in mind, those monster and known guitarist that demo virtual guitar amp simulators and are talking about what game changers they are in the demos, don't track with them. Hmmm
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miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I haven't had a chance to track down ansd read that specifc other thread discussion you had with Pinky, but now I'm curious what you're doing for electric guitar recording....?....maybe you can share some info and some examples.
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Greg_L
Banned
I don't have a problem with virtual instruments/amps in recordings. None whatsoever. I have a problem with goofballs thinking that using them live is somehow better than the real thing.
New Guy
New member
Here is a sample. The artist did a demo of the guitar after a session. He did a loop and just played a little over it so you could hear the guitar's tonal qualities. There wasn't any punches, he just played a bit. This was literally the second take. The first one he stopped a bit in the first minute and said "ok, I'm read". The mix was static, there is no automation, and the overall is a bit hot, still retained some dynamics though. As I said, there was no time spent on this. Record it, semi mix at static levels and bounce it.
https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...k-music/ronin-mirari-sample-1&h=0AQGRuuuW&s=1
Some rock guitar (recorded with a Carr Rambler amp and a old TS9 pedal.). Should sound like straight up blues, here is the result. The mastering is a bit jacked, but you can here the guit. I have to go back in a do some touch ups and master it correctly.
https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...rock-annie-chavelle-something&h=KAQFqmFVh&s=1
And the sample of what started the discussion.
http://soundcloud.com/stonehand-studio-demos/indie-pop-country-miranda
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
and that's the thing ... anyone that actually reads gregs posts on the subject would never think he's against modeling. he's said very many time that if it works then great. He even uses them on occession.
I think it's funny that people get so bent outta shape over this. For live work I prefer amps and the vast majority of guitarists still continue to prefer amps. That doesn't mean they always will and it has nothing to do with someone who prefers a virtual rig. If that's what works for you then go with it.
It's always about what works ............ if good music comes out of it then it's great.
rpm61
Person of interest
I certainly hve no problem with real amps. I love the feel of power that oozes from my fingers through the circuits and blasts out the speakers, I love the smell, the heat, the glow of the tubes. I just have to appreciate new technology as well. There are tons of players, and fans of those players, that are very happy with the very satisfying sounds they get from a traditional amp. I have trouble leaving it at that, and this is for me personally, I have often been disappointed that almost all of the sounds I could get out of an amp had been heard before, it always sounded like something else. I yearned to be playing back when Dave Davies was forcing some of the first distorted tones through his damaged speakers, I wanted to play with something new and uncharted. But it always seemed to me that there is always new territory available and the key, if that is what you're looking for, is to be open to it since it is usually something unfamiliar and maybe not very popular in the beginning. I think sims offer that opportunity, though unfortunately for me I don't think I have the time required, at my age, for the experimentation one would like to do to find the sounds and techniques these tools will enable. I do think the kids in their teens and twenties with hours to play with this stuff have a chance to come up with some outrageous sounds, and maybe I'll get lucky. I still would buy a rich-man stack if I could afford one, and what's stopping anone from blasting a sim through a hot amp too? I wouldn't be surprised in 10 years if sims are used live a lot more because some crazy ass did something really incredible with one.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I imagine the time's coming when they'll be common for live work ...... it's still a ways off though but it'll get here sooner or later
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
That first clip has some crazy distortion in spots(0:23, 0:33, 0:52 1:08-10)....not sure what's causing it, but it almost sound like signal overload during tracking. I doubt it's the Swart, I have an SST-30 and it doesn't do that....and I don't think it's the fuzz, because it only happens in spots. Maybe the FX are being overdriven.
What is that?
The second clip also has some fizzy sounding distortion that's really only noticeable when the track starts, right before the singing comes in.
I dunno....maybe you guys were going for that distortion sound in both tracks...?
On the last clip, the guitars sound good...crisp, clean.
Oh....you should just post the direct links to SoundCloud and skip that Facebook redirect....it generates security warnings.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well, that's the thing....what each of us find pleasant or annoying about guitar sounds.
I don't much like the sounds that depart too far from more traditional/classic guitar tones. I like some high-gain stuff for sure, but there's an excessive point where it just doesn't sound "real"....like a guitar & amp/cab...and it starts to sound like a synthetic "buzz" to my ears.
That's usually the problem I also have with most sims/mods/pods when it comes to digitally simulated distortion....it's that "homogenized" tone that almost never changes once you dial in a sim choice, that I find very annoying to listen too. It reminds me too much of something that came out of a synth rather than a guitar & amp/cab.
Sure, sometimes the departure from traditional/classic sounds really works great in a given song....but when it's used in more traditional/classic Rock/Pop compositions and recordings.....I think it fails in many cases, at least to my ears....but I guess if you play just that sort of thing over and over and over, people will get use to it an soon after that will actually look FOR that synthetic sound rather than the traditional/classic tones.
To each his own....