Upgrade assistance please!
- Thread starter jhag
- Start date
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
jhag said:
If you aren't getting that with the gear you have some new stuff isn't going to help. All you will get is different shades of the same color. If you want something a little more classic sounding you might try a ribbon mic.
I'm just curious as to what you mean
when you say you've got the room treatment 'covered'.
What does 75% coverage mean? Doesn't mean that you have 75% of the room covered in fiberglass, does it?
I don't mean to imply that you don't know what your doing. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. We have no way of knowing, other than you have a (mostly) impressive equipment list. I can't remember ever seeing anyone using Lucid & RME AND Behri monitors, though. But hey, maybe they work for you.
Not having heard or seen anything, my guess would be room treatment first. If you've done that as well as practicable, then monitors. Then, once you can tell what everything really sounds like, try out some different mics. I don't pretend to know anything about southern gospel, but what I've heard that I associate with it, I would think the ribbon idea makes sense. But then I think of ribbons as 'warm' and you want 'clear' (meaningless phrases I know). Have you ever tried a 414? I'm not sure which model would be appropriate, but I associate it with 'crisp' and 'clear', but then that's what I associate with the 103, too.
And then of course, compression and mastering are going to make a huge difference, what most people think of as the 'professional' sound.
What do you think about your sound that could be 'improved'?
Sounds like this is BigRay's element, so he may have some opinions on my suggestions.
when you say you've got the room treatment 'covered'.
What does 75% coverage mean? Doesn't mean that you have 75% of the room covered in fiberglass, does it?
I don't mean to imply that you don't know what your doing. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. We have no way of knowing, other than you have a (mostly) impressive equipment list. I can't remember ever seeing anyone using Lucid & RME AND Behri monitors, though. But hey, maybe they work for you.
Not having heard or seen anything, my guess would be room treatment first. If you've done that as well as practicable, then monitors. Then, once you can tell what everything really sounds like, try out some different mics. I don't pretend to know anything about southern gospel, but what I've heard that I associate with it, I would think the ribbon idea makes sense. But then I think of ribbons as 'warm' and you want 'clear' (meaningless phrases I know). Have you ever tried a 414? I'm not sure which model would be appropriate, but I associate it with 'crisp' and 'clear', but then that's what I associate with the 103, too.
And then of course, compression and mastering are going to make a huge difference, what most people think of as the 'professional' sound.
What do you think about your sound that could be 'improved'?
Sounds like this is BigRay's element, so he may have some opinions on my suggestions.
Since I'm tracking and mixing in the same room, I'm trying to get it as dead as I can using Auralex and 2" fiberglass for bass trapping and as panel traps.
Yeh, the Lucid and RME w/ the Behr monitors doesn't sound right, but here's the deal...
I was using the Lucid converter with an old Yamaha DSP Factor and the Behri monitors before I knew any better. I've since gotten the RME 9632 but I still use the lucid converter throught the RME's digital ins. I do have the choice of using the RME's analog ins and their converters but I really haven't A/B'd the RME converters and the lucid's. Who knows, I may be missing the boat and need to go strictly RME.
As far as the sound I don't like, the vocals don't seem to be in the forefront. This could be due to my lack of knowledge. But when I bring them out, volume wise, they tend to be harsh and hard on the ears. I'm now using the UAD LA-2A plug which seems to help some. Overall, I'm just not getting a clean track. Sorry I don't have the words to describe!
Yeh, the Lucid and RME w/ the Behr monitors doesn't sound right, but here's the deal...
I was using the Lucid converter with an old Yamaha DSP Factor and the Behri monitors before I knew any better. I've since gotten the RME 9632 but I still use the lucid converter throught the RME's digital ins. I do have the choice of using the RME's analog ins and their converters but I really haven't A/B'd the RME converters and the lucid's. Who knows, I may be missing the boat and need to go strictly RME.
As far as the sound I don't like, the vocals don't seem to be in the forefront. This could be due to my lack of knowledge. But when I bring them out, volume wise, they tend to be harsh and hard on the ears. I'm now using the UAD LA-2A plug which seems to help some. Overall, I'm just not getting a clean track. Sorry I don't have the words to describe!
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
jhag said:
I don't think a different pre or mic will help. That upfront and intimate sound is more a matter of mic technique and proper but heavy compression. Sometimes it helps to chain two compressors. Use the first one with a ratio of about 3:1 and a pretty low threshold and slow attack to really bring down the overall dynamics. Then use a limiter with fast attack to squash the peaks.
jhag said:
It's always best to have the most ideal accoustic situation possible ... but some perspective should be in order. If you were tracking drums, percussion and a dozen accoustic instruments, that would be a completely different story. But we are talking just vocals here. At least I'm assuming you're probably able to get a decent, dry, close-mic'ed vocal track without a lot of crazy reflections or flutter echo, which is at least a decent enough start.
First off, if your aim is to bring the vocals out front, the tool for that is compression. I've had decent enough experience with the likes of the UAD1, bomb factory, etc. ... but if you really want a solid, up-front vocal, nothing beats a good outboard hardware compressor. Over time, you'll wonder how you ever got along without one.
If this is truly the case, then I would suspect a poor match between the microphone and voice. It's possible that the 103 is accenting some sibilance and consonants, and you might find you have better luck with a more neutral condenser, like an Audio Technica 4050 or similar (or a good dynamic or ribbon). Or perhaps the mic is fine, and you just need to use a de-esser to tame the sibilance.
This could really be one of several things: It could yet another symptom of a poor mic / voice match, and that the mic just isn't jiving with your particular voice.
But it's also very possible that you need to get more comfortable using an equalizer to roll off some low end, or cut some of the low-mids, and boost some of the high-mids to get a little clearer sound.
Lastly, you might want to look in to how you're positioning the mic, or rather, how you're positioned relative to the mic. As an example, I record a lot of singers, and when a track isn't "clean" or clear enough, usually the number one culprit, believe it or not, is that the singer can't sing straight in to the damn mic. Sometimes their head wanders like Stevie Wonder, or perhaps they sing out the side of their mouth (without knowing it) because they're just not confident enough in their own voice, their lyrics or both to sing with the necessary conviction and anunciation (and don't even get me started on the use of lyric sheets).
As another example of positioning ... sometimes moving the mic upwards a bit and pointing it down towards your mouth so you have to "sing up" to the mic can help tame some of the chest resonances that, for some singers, can cloud things up a bit. Similarly, moving it down towards the chest can accent some of those resonances if you find your voice to be too thin.
As you can see, there are a myriad of factors involved in all of this, and it's nearly impossible to narrow things down simply from looking at someone's post on a discussion board or from hearing an mp3 sample. It's likely that your solution could involve any of the things I mentioned ... some, or even none (could be something else entirely).
Good luck.
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Chessrock - Thanks for the great reply! Some good information in there. I believe you are right about the Microphone, though. The voices I've had the most problems with have a "honk" for lack of better words. Everything I have read confirm the 103's hyped upper end.
As far as the compressor, parden my ignorance, is there really a day and night difference is a hardware piece vs. software (UAD-1)?
As far as the compressor, parden my ignorance, is there really a day and night difference is a hardware piece vs. software (UAD-1)?
jhag said:
Keep in mind that this is just from my own experience. And just because I haven't personally heard, for myself, a software compressor that does as good of a job of bringing vocals "upfront" (as a hardware one) ... doesn't mean that they don't exisit.
But I have yet to hear one. Yea, I've worked with some that actually do an outstanding job of transparently evening out levels (gainriding) and peak limiting without nasty artifacts. And there are a few that I even like for adding some nice pop to a drum or bass track. But as far drawing a vocal track up front to the point where it feels like it's invading your personal space ... I've only worked with hardware compressors that do that.
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I can see where he's coming from
and it's not just about volume. I do the exact same thing with the car radio.
I get it.
You would hope that most singers would be comfortable with their own voice before you start working with them, but unfortunately that's not always the case.
and it's not just about volume. I do the exact same thing with the car radio.
I get it.
You would hope that most singers would be comfortable with their own voice before you start working with them, but unfortunately that's not always the case.