U87

[jslator]

(some nonsense)

So, I guess anyone without a hit record should probably forego buying a C1 then, and should just pick up the cheapest Radio Shack mic they can find. After all, they won't be able to tell the difference, right? I suppose anyone without a hit record should also immediately cease posting any opinions here or on any other web board or making any other pronouncement whatsoever about anything they hear because they are not qualified to do so?

And you tell me to "grow up" in the same paragraph as you threaten to knock out my teeth? Is that supposed to be irony?

I honestly think you've finally lost your mind, Alan.

 

[Hard2Hear]

I guess I have to speak up for Alan just a bit here. Mainly because I DO work with hitmakers, I HAVE been to the NAMM shows, and I HAVE heard the C-1 / u87 demo.

I dropped by and visited the SP booth at NAMM a couple years ago and Alan personally let me hear the C-1, C-3, and U87. But he made no comparisons except to compare the C-1 versus the C-3. The U87 was simply supplied as a refrence point. And the reason is that if you work in real recording studios, you're going to see and hear u87's as much or more than any other mic. So it's a great refrence mic for most engineers to use, that's why it was there. Not for comparison.

Also, I have to argue that the people with the best ears ARE making records that sell alot. Generally when people are the best at something they do it for a living. I mean, someone may say they're a better producer than Mutt Lange...but where's the proof?

Anyways, I prefer the no longer made U89 to the U87. They are similar, just a little different to me and I like the 89 a little more on most things.

H2H

 

[alanhyatt]

So, I guess anyone without a hit record should probably forego buying a C1 then

No, they should not, but you accuse me of using a U87 as a publicity stunt, then you call me a prick. You miss the entire point I have been making from day one about mics and opinions, but you slam your opinions home on this group when it comes to SP.

I do not like being called names. I did not call you names. I asked you a question regarding wether you do this for a living, or if this is a hobby. You get bent out of shape over it and all I am doing is trying to find out if your ears are as tuned as the pros. As hardtohear will tell you, the level of ears on working pros is much different than a project studio. This does not mean you don't know what you like, but when professionals offer opinions on mics, they usually have the same opinions. I say this because many pros have made claims on the mics. Pete Leoni, and Ted Perlman are working pros, Kahliq Glover, Jason Miles, Doug Oberkercher and more are working pros, so I asked if you were.

I will not take being name called by anyone. If you want to start that, then you had better say it to my face. Hiding behind a computer screen and insulting me is chicken shit. I will take your difference of opinions, and I will take your not liking our products, but you will not call me names unless you are willing to do so to my face. I have earned that much respect in my lifetime despite what you think.

 

[jnorman]

i started using the original U87s when they were still a new model back in the early 1970s. the originals are still better than the newer ones IMHO, though the older ones are a bit noisier. those of us who do classical material and higher end solo and small ensemble work are the folks who truly appreciate what the old U87 can offer - a delicate and nearly flat freq response. a million gold records have been made using it, and it is still probably the most common mic seen in the professional world, and not undeservedly. the newer mics such as the rode nTK and the SP-C1, etc., though pretty good mics for the money, are all quite hyped in the high freq range, and can sometimes seem like a better mic than the U87 for some vocal applications, and i would not argue that for vocals you should use what works for the mix and the singer. however, for the classical work i do, the newer mics with significant bumps in the response curve just are not acceptable - just try and mic a flute, oboe, or violin with a C1 and compare THAT to a U87, and you will immediately see what i mean. the main problem is, when you have a source that already has a lot of information in the high freqs, a mic that emphasizes those frequencies will just kill you - it is way easier to add a bit of top end to a smooth mic than it is to remove the harsh grating high end sound of a hyped mic after you've recorded that once in a lifetime track...

 

[jslator]

No, they should not, but you accuse me of using a U87 as a publicity stunt, then you call me a prick.

Here is the exact statement that you challenged my credibilty to make:

Personally, if my own ears tell me two things sound different and someone who makes "hits" tells me that they sound the same, I'm still going to trust my ears.

Sorry Alan, but anybody with normal hearing is qualified to make that statment. It doesn't take a "hitmaker" to discern differences in sound. In fact, George Martin would today probably be less capable of discerning differences in sound in a properly constructed test than would a healthy 20-year-old with no "hitmaking" experience whatsoever. If a C1 and a U87 sound different to me, I'm full of shit because Pete Leoni says they sound the same?! Give me a fuckin' break! (what hits has Pete Leoni engineered anyway?)

I think you're the one missing the point here Alan. People should use their own ears and learn to trust them in evaluating gear, not just listen to what "hitmakers" like Pete Leoni say in some magazine article or advertisement.

I do not like being called names. I did not call you names.

No, you threatened to knock my teeth out.

...many pros have made claims on the mics.

Many pro's have said your mic's don'tsound like U87's too. Some have even said they don't sound very good at all. So, where does that leave us? Maybe we have no choice but to use our own ears, and not simply take whatever Pete Leoni tells us at face value? What a novel idea!

I will not take being name called by anyone.

Get over it.

Hiding behind a computer screen and insulting me is chicken shit.

Not as chicken shit as hiding behind a computer screen and threatening me physically.

...I will take your not liking our products...

Reread the posts. I didn't say anything about how a C1 sounds or whether I like it or not. I said that just because a "hitmaker" says it sounds like a U87 doesn't mean it's so. What's the big deal about it not sounding like a U87 anyway? Why do you get your back all up about that? Do you think the U87 the only decent sounding mic on the planet? I don't get it.

 

[charliedango]

Also, I have to argue that the people with the best ears ARE making records that sell alot. Generally when people are the best at something they do it for a living. I mean, someone may say they're a better producer than Mutt Lange...but where's the proof?

I don't agree with that statement. Success in the business has little to nothing to do with talent. That goes for producers the same as it does for artists. There are thousands of "hit making" producers who's sound is either cookie cutter or very limited when stretched beyond the common palette of todays production trends.

Name notoriety as a producer or engineer says nothing about your ability in the studio just like the grammys don't determine the who's talented.

Also, just because someone is doing something for a living doesn't mean that they are the best at what they do. Great engineers and producers often remain unknown due to the fact that people are not rewarded for what they do, only people who reward themselves get what they want. The unfortunate downside to this is that people who have natural ability often fail to be recognized simply due to the overwhelming number of people who continuously reward themselves. It's not like there are real standards that you have to adhere to in this line of work. There is no grand championship of mixing to determine who stands above the rest because it's all subjective and there really is no "best".

Also, saying that so-and-so, big-named producer has better judgement than johnny garage based solely on their status in the industry is total bullshit. Any bigtime status symbol got to where they are not because of what they can do, but how many people got behind them. Don't get me wrong, I respect status symbols because they are in a position to do things that I cannot and probably never will be in the position to do myself. I don't believe that they are all-knowing and all-powerful and in most cases I probably wouldn't see eye to eye with them on a great many things, but I still respect them as humans and applaud them as individuals who have furthered themselves beyond the restrictions that hold the rest of us back.

Man I'm long winded today.

 

[mixmkr]

Man I'm long winded today.

yeah...but you are basically right...or at least I agree with much of what you said.

 

[alanhyatt]

No, you threatened to knock my teeth out.

Do you have teeth.....

 

[Middleman]

I was gonna turn off the computer an go watch the Sopranos but this is getting just as good. Wait though I wanna go make some popcorn.

 

[Henri Devill]

I was gonna turn off the computer an go watch the Sopranos but this is getting just as good. Wait though I wanna go make some popcorn.

I'll join ya..Go lite on the butter I'm waching my weight


Don

 

[DJL]

I was gonna turn off the computer an go watch the Sopranos but this is getting just as good. Wait though I wanna go make some popcorn.

Hurry up with the popcorn already, your taking too long.

 

[Middleman]

OK, I'm back. My wife bought me an old fashion handcrank popper and it takes longer than the microwave.

No butta, just salt!

 

[pundit]

Where's the cheese?!

 

[6gun]

yeah...but you are basically right...or at least I agree with much of what you said.

that IS the truth. so many factors other than ears go into becoming one of the 'hitmakers'. that whole statement about the 'pros' knowing 'THE sound' is as arrogant and untrue as it gets.

 

[DJL]

I guess the show is over, you took to long with the popcorn. lol.


I was just thinking about all the famous bands and etc that didn't really have any hits on their earlier records. Did Pink Floyd have any real hits on their first record? I'm LOL. Sorry Alan, but I find your statement very funny.

 

[mixmkr]

that IS the truth. so many factors other than ears go into becoming one of the 'hitmakers'. that whole statement about the 'pros' knowing 'THE sound' is as arrogant and untrue as it gets.

and I especially think even MORE applies to the A & R people of the record companies. I haven't really had contact with any of these people in the last 15 years, so I may be waaay off base, but I have a story that relates. I was an engineer in a studio, where a popular 70/80's national group was recording/practicing. The guys from A & M records came to listen to their tracks to see if they would renew their record contract. They had their ears so skewed, they couldn't hear the differences they suggested on the rough mix playbacks. Shit, we did the [popular] story of twisting unrelated knobs and stuff, and laughed all the time, while the band leader was shoving coke up their noses to "secure" the record deal. Priceless.

 

[DJL]

I don't think the Studio Projects C1 sounds like a Neumann U87, so tell me the truth, do you really think they sound the same? A simple yes or no answer will do. Thanks

I guess I have to speak up for Alan just a bit here. Mainly because I DO work with hitmakers, I HAVE been to the NAMM shows, and I HAVE heard the C-1 / u87 demo.

I dropped by and visited the SP booth at NAMM a couple years ago and Alan personally let me hear the C-1, C-3, and U87. But he made no comparisons except to compare the C-1 versus the C-3. The U87 was simply supplied as a refrence point. And the reason is that if you work in real recording studios, you're going to see and hear u87's as much or more than any other mic. So it's a great refrence mic for most engineers to use, that's why it was there. Not for comparison.

Also, I have to argue that the people with the best ears ARE making records that sell alot. Generally when people are the best at something they do it for a living. I mean, someone may say they're a better producer than Mutt Lange...but where's the proof?

Anyways, I prefer the no longer made U89 to the U87. They are similar, just a little different to me and I like the 89 a little more on most things.

H2H

 

[mixmkr]

hey DJL, I think the idea was that the u87 was a reference point, not being somthing that a mic costing signifcantly less sounded like. Even your quote in your post suggested that.

But, besides the point, since you don't think they sound the same, yet you ask for the truth... That's a head scratcher.

but, I think you'll get a simple "no" from everyone. Close maybe in some respects... but the same... ahhh...

 

[DJL]

hey DJL, I think the idea was that the u87 was a reference point, not being somthing that a mic costing signifcantly less sounded like. Even your quote in your post suggested that.

But, besides the point, since you don't think they sound the same, yet you ask for the truth... That's a head scratcher.

but, I think you'll get a simple "no" from everyone. Close maybe in some respects... but the same... ahhh...

Yea ok, I understand that and maybe my wording wasn't the best, I just wanted to know if he is one of the hit makers with burned-out ears who thinks the C1 and U87 sound the same or not? I don't, and it sounds like you don't either.

 

[mgraffeo]

I believe that the common statement was that the C1 "stands up well next to the U87", meaning that it was a mic which was in a class which belonged on a stand next to a U87, not on a stand next to a generic, no-name, exaggerated-high-sounding mic.

I don't think that there are too many reviews which say that the mic is indistinguishable from a U87. There are some comments on the web site from folks which say that now that they've bought the C1, they no longer need a U87.

Use your brains, folks. When the Hyundai commercials tell you that it has the ride of a Lexus, do you run out to the boards, and ask everyone if the Elantra is as good as the ES300???

-mg

(apologies to any Hyundai owners