U87

[wes480]

that's a good idea nubs (drum tuning lessons for free recording)

 

[littledog]

i like earthworks small diaphgragms in the front on the beater, and for the snare wires. i like schoeps small diaphragm condensers on the toms, sometimes snare and as xy overheads. those are kickass mics.

I'd LOVE to try some Schoeps, unfortunately I don't have any right now and can't afford them at the moment.

y'all know how to tune drums? you'd be suprised how many drummers can't. i love it when they go on a lunch break, i run out into the drum room and tune their drums while they are gone. when they come back they are always surprised at how good their drums sound on playback. idiots. someday when you get a really good drummer in tell them you'll give 'em a free hour or two if they show you how to tune them. it will pay for itself tenfold and two-score furlongs.

good idea! i have no idea how to tune drums... always thought it was some sort of black magic. i've heard about how some people earn a living as drum tuning specialists for studios, but don't know if it's actually true. maybe nubs should moderate a drum tuning forum.

often the drummers i'm recording don't seem to know any more than i do, and after an hour of futility trying to tune out an obnoxious resonance, i give up and hand them the roll of gaffer's tape.

nubs, how did you learn? are you are drummer?

 

[sweetnubs]

let's just say nublove has got a very good friend with a percussion performance degree. it isn't that hard to do, but it does require a good ear. if you are a musician and can tune an instrument (which a lot of musicians can't) you can learn how to tune drums pretty quickly. i even learned quite a few tips on listening for overtones on cymbals. seriously don't be shy and trade recording time for tuning lessons, just make shure the guy is good. learning how to change heads is extrememly helpful also. i keep a constant supply of heads around. if the drummer brings in shitty heads, i'll have him put 'em on or i will do it myself. i wish i could afford a drum tech, aaaah back in the day . . . .another option is find a good jazz player in the city who gives lessons. take a drum tuning lesson. another tip, go to a local studio with a reel to reel deck, book some time there and have them show you how to align reel to reels. i have people pay for 2 - 4 hours just to learn how to align decks.

 

[pundit]

I own a C-1, and I know when it was introduced they put it next to a U-87 at the NAMM show. Seemingly the SP folks thought it sounded pretty close. I've heard some people say they sound very close, others say "you get what you pay for." Let's leave price out the equation since that has nothing to do with the actual sound.

Is there anyone who has done a side-by-side comparison that can share their thoughts? Thanks.

I've compared the C1 with a ten year old U87 and 1967 Neumann U77 (early FET T powered version) which uses the same capsule as a U67.

A C1 sounding like a U87?!! = TOTAL BUNKUM!!

I posted the following on another thread...

I recently compared the C1 and C3... the C3 being the multi-pattern version. As for the hype floating around suggesting a C1 sounds like a U87... it does NOT!

I own a Neumann U77 which is similar, but not identical to a U87. A friend also owns an 87 and we also compared both Neumanns with a C1. The C1 sounds noticeably different to both these Neumanns.

The Neumanns were a little thicker in the lo-mids and not as hyped in the upper mids as the C1. On certain things the C1 sounded more 'impressive' due to it's coloration. But by the same token there were certain things that it wasn't so suitable for. Thinnish female vocals being one. The Neumanns were never really bad on anything. This is the reason the mics like the 87 are really an industry standard in the world of recording. Sure not everyone loves them. There is always another mic that, in a given situation, will sound better on a particular source. But there are not many condenser mics that could be used on almost anything and still produce an acceptable recording than something like a 87. It's sort of a all rounder. Hence a standard.

Several reviewers have also stated that a C3 in cardioid mode sounds just like a C1... BULLSHIT YET AGAIN! They are quite different sonically. The C1 has a higher output than the C3... about 3 to 4db, I would guess, and much greater proximity effect. The C1 can get quite thick in the lo-end up close... in fact too much. Any closer than six inches really brings on the boom factor.

Also the C1 has more of an upper mid-range presence while the C3 appears a little smoother in this region but offers more 'air' even further up the scale than the C1. If anything the C1 is more colored than the C3, in a nice kind of a way, but I found the upper mids bordering just a little too much on the edgy side for my liking. Not much... just a touch. Still plenty of people really like this mic. Though I would want to avoid using cheap harsh sounding pre's with these mics.

So irrespective of the multi-pattern option on the C3, I think it is a superior sounding mic to the C1, which of course everyone is wetting their pants over. If you can afford the extra hundred dollars or so definately check out the C3.

Incidently I purchased two C3's.


Now there is no doubt that U87's have changed somewhat over the years, but I have NEVER heard a U87 with the same upper-mid boost as the C1.

So whoever started this rumor needs to remove the knitting needles from their eardrums... so they can be inserted elsewhere!!

BTW... Who DID start the C1/U87 rumor?

Was it a publicity stunt on behalf of SP's??

 

[jslator]

BTW... Who DID start the C1/U87 rumor?

Was it a publicity stunt on behalf of SP's??

I do believe so. Hell, in the test conditions they used (the NAMM convention floor), the C1 probably did sound about the same as a U87. It probably sounded about the same as a D112 or a B&K 4003 too.

 

[6gun]

[BTW... Who DID start the C1/U87 rumor?

i thought that came from a review in mix mag....i may be wrong but i thought i read that on another thread in another galaxy.

 

[Richard Monroe]

I think they probably meant the new U87ai has slipped so bad, it's starting to sound like a C-1! heh.-Richie

 

[Dot]

I've used over 20 U87's over the years, and even 87's don't sound like other 87's. To pull one 87 and compare it to a C1 is to miss the point. And the 87 is known for its mid-range "honk".

When I was building one of many project studios in '00-'01 and was wanting the "sheen" of an 87, I got a TLM 103 in the hopes it would even get close. It did not.

When the C1 showed up on the scene, I bought one very early sight unseen. Now, it's a year and a half since my inital C1 review - which has been linked to from the SP website - and I still think the C1 is on equal foot with 87's.

There's a review here in which the C1 jumps all over a stock 87 and even gives a Heyne-modded U87 a good run.

Like it or not. Agree or not. There are quite a few engineers with years of experience with many 87's who vouch for the C1 and C3. The day I got a C1 I no longer felt that I was missing what an 87 would add to my project studio.

We have a list of mics as long as your arm and the only reason to have an 87 in-house is because some "old school" clients might expect it.

To think you can't compare a $200 mic to a $2000 mic is absurd. I can show you digital tape decks that cost $100,000 new that no longer sound as good as current $1000 machines.

If you want to try a really good mic that's much less than a new 87AI, get your hands on a Soundelux U195. That mic is $1000 less and stomps all up and down on the 87.

_____________

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

 

[Middleman]

The C1 vs. U87 myth started from an article at Prorec.com and which was prompted by Pete Leoni's experience at NAMM in 2001. http://www.prorec.com./prorec/articles.nsf/files/2CAB4F71AF9E2A1C86256A650081ECF9

Could have been a PR stunt but I don't think so. 2 years ago when this came out everyone was looking for the Holy Grail of low cost mikes and I think the C1 came close to the mark. The enthusiasm might have gotten out of hand over time.

Actually, I noticed the date of your review Dan and you may have preempted the Prorec article. But Ted Perlman's recant of Pete's encounter might predate both.

Aren't I the little media sourcing bug.....?

 

[Dot]

Middleman, since you're delving into some of the history, the first real 87 vs budget Chinese-made mic comparison started with Larry Villella of ADK at a trade show. He used a Stephen Paul modded 87 for listeners to reference comparisons to his ADK mics. FYI, ADK was actually offered the first prototype of the C1 for production from 797 Audio.

The C1 review by JD Mars of Digital Pro Sound was made in March of 2001. That was the only review I'd read before buying a C1 and writing my own review.

I'd never – and still don't think I have – ever seen any of Pete Leoni's rants or reviews on the C1.

_____________

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

 

[Middleman]

Dan, check out the Prorec article and look down about halfway. There is an excerpt that covers Pete's experience as told by Ted Perlman.

Here is a Jan. 2001 article from Joel Braverman who indicates he was with Pete at the show. So this must be the first write up.

"Attack of the U87 Clones

In the basement of any NAMM show is where most of the truly innovative stuff usually is.

Next to and affiliated with JoeMeek was Studio Projects Corp. They had a set of condenser mics lined up next to a Neumann U87 and were daring anyone to say they didn’t sound just like it. Well, not having any decent vocalists around meant we had to try with our own voices. Pete Leoni and I gave it a try. The cheapest one they made sounded closest to the U87 to my ears, but one would have to put them to the test in a real studio to find out if they really were as good. I know, I know. But Leoni bought one, along with a “Golden Tone” banjo, the sound of which he raved about deliriously."

So it looks like Studio Projects created a demo from which the rest is history.

 

[Dot]

So it looks like Studio Projects created a demo from which the rest is history.

ADK created the first U87-vs-our-mic demo.

 

[jslator]

ADK created the first U87-vs-our-mic demo.

Maybe or maybe not, but nobody ever heard of that one. The SP one got all the press.

 

[alanhyatt]

The C1 vs. U87 myth started from an article at Prorec.com and which was prompted by Pete Leoni's experience at NAMM in 2001. http://www.prorec.com./prorec/articles.nsf/files/2CAB4F71AF9E2A1C86256A650081ECF9

Could have been a PR stunt but I don't think so.

Thank you, this was no publicity stunt. The mic was put up as a point of reference so people would know what they were hearing. It had nothing to do as a comparrison. PMI, nor did I ever make that statement.

Any and all statements were made by users and reviewers. If anyone out there wishes to dismiss what these people have said, then you may do so, but like Dot said, their are a good many of them out there that are making hits, so you can't dismiss all of them. Like everything else out on the market, opinions will vary, as will hearing. Who is right, or who is wrong does not matter.

You either like specific mics or you dont....

 

[jslator]

If anyone out there wishes to dismiss what these people have said, then you may do so, but like Dot said, their are a good many of them out there that are making hits, so you can't dismiss all of them.

Personally, if my own ears tell me two things sound different and someone who makes "hits" tells me that they sound the same, I'm still going to trust my ears.

 

[alanhyatt]

Personally, if my own ears tell me two things sound different and someone who makes "hits" tells me that they sound the same, I'm still going to trust my ears.

Are you a working studio engineer with hits under your belt, or are you a project studio owner in a basement that has more experience than those hit makers in their professional studios who earn their living from recording?

Please post your credits so everyone here knows where you are coming from.

 

[jslator]

Are you a working studio engineer with hits under your belt, or are you a project studio owner in a basement that has more experience than those hit makers in their professional studios who earn their living from recording?

This is one of the biggest loads of shit you have ever posted here Alan (and that's saying a lot). You're trying to tell me that only professional recording engineers with hit records are qualified to hear differences between microphones?!! What a crock! My fucking wife can hear differences between microhones, Alan. She has no recording experience. She might not be able to tell where best to place them or what mic to use for a particular source, but given two recordings made with different mic's, she can sure as shit can tell the difference. Believe it or not, she can even verbalize which mic's are "brighter", which are "deeper", which are "thicker", which are "thinner" and the like. I would expect the same ability from any person with normal hearing. But I guess anyone who thinks they can hear a difference between mic's is full of shit unless they have hit records, right? What a pretentious prick.

 

[alanhyatt]

This is one of the biggest loads of shit you have ever posted here Alan (and that's saying a lot). You're trying to tell me that only professional recording engineers with hit records are qualified to hear differences between microphones?!! What a crock! My fucking wife can hear differences between microhones, Alan. She has no recording experience. She might not be able to tell where best to place them or what mic to use for a particular source, but given two recordings made with different mic's, she can sure as shit can tell the difference. Believe it or not, she can even verbalize which mic's are "brighter", which are "deeper", which are "thicker", which are "thinner" and the like. I would expect the same ability from any person with normal hearing. But I guess anyone who thinks they can hear a difference between mic's is full of shit unless they have hit records, right? What a pretentious prick.

I am sure that your ears are absolutley the best in the world...better than all those hit makers out there. I am sorry I ever doubted them.

You just seem to never get the point! How many times do we say that mics are judged by opinions, yet you keep posting little sarcastic remarks. Were you at the NAMM Show to listen... Since you say I did it as a publicity stunt, then you must know what I am thinking right now. If you did hear it at the show, please stop by this show so you and I can have a chat!

Why dont you get over it already. Then you have to resort to name calling at the end of your statement. If you were here and said that to me, I would arrange a meeting with your dentist for you. Grow the hell up already. If your opinions are the only ones that matter, then back them up...or shut up.

 

[Tom Cram]

Jslator, check your PM.

 

[DJL]

I don't have a hit record so I'm not sure I heard you correctly. lol.