Turning digital into analog?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Oh, and PS, check out this thread from a few days ago for more on tape machine choices and the "analog warming" process:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=157121

G.

 

[diogo]

Glen,

im getting tired just of thinking about all u described there lol



u mean its not gonna do anything unless i actually use the tape?
i guess thats not strange, but i know of some ppl that use it just as an effect or part of a stomp rack with great results...

 

[diogo]

tanx for the info Glen

kind of frustrating that it wont work though.. . :/

 

[Beck]

I have seen something like this done with a three-head deck, but tape is involved. The signal is recorded but then continues along the chain through the repro head. In this scenario tape compression is the desired effect.

You could have the tape deck earlier in the chain (think of It as a big effect pedal)

So in the guitar example the signal is recorded to tape but reproduced immediately, which is then recorded to the digital format as if the whole process is one fluid motion. So the signal is basically passing through, hitting the tape and continuing on to its digital destination. Does that sound like what you’re trying to do?

I’m not sure about the capabilities of your sound card. It just needs to be able to play and record simultaneously if you want to take a signal that’s already recorded digitally and “bounce” it through an analog machine.

-Tim

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I can't explain that guitarist's trick, unless they're just using the preamp of the tape machine as a kind of makeshift compressor. If that's the case, you can use any home stereo cassete deck you want and get the same effect. Buying a nice open reel machine for just that is a waste of a perfectly good open reel machine, IMHO.

Plus in the recording process, any such effect from just using the machine to lengthen the signal chain passively will serve to do little to nothing other than maybe increase your noise floor. 99% of the "sound" of analog tape machines comes not from the input or output stages of the electronics, but rather from the "distortion" (technically speaking) that comes from the recording process itself (the way the tape heads and the tape itself color the sound.

It's much like the old vinyl record vs. CD arguments. 99% of the sound of a vinyl album does not come from the turntable, it comes from the vinyl itself and the phono stylus/cartrige combo that's reading it.

G.

 

[diogo]

So in the guitar example the signal is recorded to tape but reproduced immediately, which is then recorded to the digital format as if the whole process is one fluid motion. So the signal is basically passing through, hitting the tape and continuing on to its digital destination. Does that sound like what you’re trying to do?

yes this would be what i intended Tim. but i thought the caracther of tape could also be obtained in the deck itself, without the tape.

tanx for the great explanation..

 

[diogo]

Glen,

yes i think thats the case..he's probably using it as an effect. its really small but he says it really adds to the sound.

i can use a normal tape deck...i guess...

but man, does a reel to reel look a lot cooler or what!?

the problem with normal tape decks is that i dont think i can find them anymore...like those ones i used to hook up to the 128K Spectrum to play Rambo and pacman lol

i never saw those again...im thinking of an old cool portastudio (from ebay cause i always wanted something like that) for that as well..or something like this:

http://www.thomann.de/index.html?pa...info.html?sn=f9bd74130532b0b40fb7e50131956bb2

tascam mf-p01

finding a 1 track tape deck with line in nowadays will be something for indiana jones or whatever..im just not seeing it happen..and im not gonna ebay a 1 track tape deck lol
thats gonna get here and crap out, and then ill want my 5 bucks (just sent to a country thats like an ocean away) back

Glen, tanx for the great hindisght, you really did break it down for me, i understand it would be useless to go with a reel to reel.

many thanks!

 

[Beck]

Then I must've left the neg feedback... Good - after your nonsense I was regretting not having done so -- as it turns out, I did the right thing after all!



Clearly, you have issues - maybe you didn't get enough suckling on your momma's teat when you were a baby -- you do realize that internet threats make you sound like a psycho, right?

idiot.....

Hearing you of all people call someone a psycho actually made me laugh out loud... actually so amused I almost didn’t know what to say. Imagine me at a loss for words.

No you didn't do the right thing unless you think acting like a weasel is the right thing.

You couldn't possibly understand but I'll say it anyway because others will. Sneaking up on someone like a coward and leaving negative rep instead of just making your case like a man in the forum is dishonorable. In my family, my heritage and my culture you took a glove off and slapped me in the face and made it personal.

In the words of John Rambo, “You drew first blood, not me.” Then you have the nerve to cry foul because I’m offended. After your behavior It’s actually perfectly natural for a person with normal passions to want to drive up and twist you into a pretzel.

In your world you have the right to provoke and harass without consequence, and the moment someone has it up to here with you they are suddenly in the wrong. That only demonstrates how twisted your sense of fairness really is.

Furthermore, all I initially did here in the first place was share with another member what I thought in answer to a question about recording. It had nothing to do with you.

It is obvious to everyone but you that you have the issues if you can’t handle a disparaging comment about digital without getting defensive and actually being so childish as to leave a negative rep over it. That is absolutely infantile!

We’re all very happy for you that you are content with your studio and choice of equipment. But if you’re really so sure you spent your money wisely why are you so easily shaken? And you certainly wont change my mind by taking cheap shots.

I’ve been suffering through your outrageous posts for about two years now, when I can stomach it enough to read more than a line or two.

If you would just go away, or at least stay in the cave where you can happily commiserate with the other neurotics, the rest of us could manage to turn this into a respectable forum. I can even envision happy friendships, collaborations and general peace and tranquility; a place where people can speak freely without your attempts at intimidation and censorship.

As long as you’re here though its not going to happen – not unless you have some Damascus Road experience and get the fear of God or something. Or we both show up at Jamfest. Hmmm... yeah, I'm convinced its good for people in the long run to be forced out of their comfort zones (computer chairs) and have to confront the people they've so carelessly mistreated.

We all have our moments and go off when we shouldn’t – most everyone has. But this is something way beyond the pale. You seem to have found your niche as our resident antagonist and thread saboteur. I don’t think anyone wants or needs that here – thank you anyway.

 

[Beck]

I can say that I use analog and digital all the time. I have read all these debates in a number of BBs' and I still don't quite understand what all the argument is over. I use a 24 channel HD recorder and an MCI 24 2" recorder all the time. I can say that I have heard a difference between these two and learned that either format just takes different recording techniques to get what you are after (except for the high-end digital stuff). I can also say that not 1 single musician or singer has ever told me that my recordings were harsh. The ones who cannot afford tape, I record in digital. They are quite happy with the final product. The ones who can afford tape are happy with theirs too. While strolling through my older recordings recently I tried to pin-down which ones were done in analog or digital. Of the tracks I have forgotten, I must say I can't tell you.There are plenty of all digital productions that are better sounding than 80% of analog productions.

I think the misiing link is that analog and low-cost digital require much different recording techniques to get the same type of sound. Once you are experienced in analog, digital can turn you off and visa-versa. And lastly, digital is a new technology in music and new, current technology costs $$$. You can't go to eBay, spend $200 on a tape machine that originally went for $2000 - up and compare it to digital recording stuff that costs $200.

Only recent comparison:
Studer 24 track 2" machine - $35,000
RADAR decked out digital system - $20,000

I have heard and used both of these systems. I cannot tell any sonic difference between the two at all.

So, you are right that a low-cost digital system is inferior to an expensive analog system (cheap on eBay), but an expensive digital system sounds like an expensive analog system because with great converters, the sound is just like tape with no hiss at all.
I like them both.

See, there it is. Agree or not that's what I'm talking about. The above by Acorec is an intelligent post that contributes meaningful information to the discussion.

 

[acorec]

yes this would be what i intended Tim. but i thought the caracther of tape could also be obtained in the deck itself, without the tape.

tanx for the great explanation..

Tape compression is a function of the magnetic medium and not the electronics of the tape machine. The type of compression that is desireable is found on pro machines where the bias and record/repro amplifiers have a ton of headroom. The idea is that you are recording *cleanly* in the non-linear space of the magnetic tape. The signal is so hot that the magnetic tape saturates *cleanly*. Most home machines cannot do this. Somd good home machines that can do this are like Tascam 80-8s, Otari MX5050 8track and 2 track.

Hitting the *electronics* trying to get the tape saturation when the electronics don't have enough headroom creates *unclean* distortion. This is not tape compression at all.

A rough parallel is in a guitar amplifier. If you have 100 clean watts and are driving a 50w speaker then the type of distortion you get is clean, smooth and pleasing to the ear because you are driving the *speaker* into distortion with clean power. Now take a 50w amp and drive a 100w speaker. This type of distortion is driving the *amplifier* into "unclean" distortion that is rough and unpleasing to the ear. The amp simply ran out of clean power and is clipped like a square wave.

Both are considered distortion (any change in the original waveform) but the first example is pleasing to the ear (and the amp since the second form destroys both the amp and the speaker over time because the speaker "stops" and "starts" violently with each cycle). It is the type of clipping of the waveform that is of importance here. Analog tape compression is the overdriving of the *tape* with alot of high gain that is clean and not overdriving of the electronics.

I set up the bias on my 2" machine to enhance the tape compression effect because drums and bass get really punchy. This is the way that most pro studios record and it is the tape compression mostly that is responsible for the punchiness of drums and bass and not compressors. I can't get anywhere near the sound and tape compression out of my 1/2" 16 track deck because the electronics don't have the headroom. Tape track width does not have as much to do with the sound as the electronics. The few home tape machines that have good electronics are the ones I have listed above.

 

[chessrock]

We all have our moments and go off when we shouldn’t – most everyone has. But this is something way beyond the pale. You seem to have found your niche as our resident antagonist and thread saboteur. I don’t think anyone wants or needs that here – thank you anyway.

I just gave you a negative rep point because you've basically sabotaged this thread with a bunch of crying and whining. I realize Bluebear hurt your feelings with his rolling-eyes emoticon and all ... but get over it. Worse things happen in life. Move on.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

If you would just go away

That ISN'T gonna happen, skippy.... guys like you who turn equipment selection in to semi-religious bullshit piss me right off.... so unless you stop the propaganda that one recording format is somehow better than another, rather than simply accepting the merits of each one in a particular context, I will continue to check you on it....

Get a fuckin' grip..............

 

[Beck]

I just gave you a negative rep point because you've basically sabotaged this thread with a bunch of crying and whining. I realize Bluebear hurt your feelings with his rolling-eyes emoticon and all ... but get over it. Worse things happen in life. Move on.

It has nothing to do with getting over anything or emoticons, and everything to do with people like you chronically ruining this forum. This has building for months if not years. The thread was already gone Sherlock. And what are you doing now with your post?

Chicago is just over two hours away from me. Either agree to meet with me or take your cowardly ass of the board. PM me with when and where. No it's not a threat, but this will not be resolved at a distance in text.

Half way? Hindsdale Oasis? Do they let you drive or will you be walking/riding a bike? Navy Pier -- you name the place. I get to the burbs on a regular basis.

Or we can keep a music theme -- Gand Music in Northfield? Guitar Center? I'm open to suggestions.

You and Bruce are going to stop with the flaming arrows one way or the other. You won't change my mind.

Get civilized on this board or get ready to discuss it with me in person. There is no other choice.

This isn't about recording anymore, but you started it so finish it with some balls.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Get civilized on this board or get ready to discuss it with me in person. There is no other choice.

This isn't about recording anymore, but you started it so finish it with some balls.

Like I said earlier: "psycho"...........

 

[Beck]

Like I said earlier: "psycho"...........

I'm not going to leave you or chessrock a negative rep. I'm going to talk to you in person. While I appreciate the gesture from those who have left me positive regarding this discussion, rep points don't reflect reality. Just look at Blue Weasel here. He either has several bogus accounts to give himself reps or there are enough rump-rangers following him around, based on what I don’t know, or both.

Bruce may talk like Jesse Ventura, but he looks more like Gilligan for those of you who don’t know.

You really don't think you're going to see me do you Bruce? I love it.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

You really don't think you're going to see me do you Bruce? I love it.

My studio's not hidden, sherlock............ but you will need an appointment.......... and you're still a psycho........

 

[Beck]

My studio's not hidden, sherlock............ but you will need an appointment..........

Looks like you get the last word.... here anyway.

 

[chessrock]

It has nothing to do with getting over anything or emoticons, and everything to do with people like you chronically ruining this forum.

So in other words, you believe that threatening strangers several thousand miles away with physical violence ... is somehow a good and producting thing for this forum ? ?



You need to calm down. You're taking all of this stuff way too seriously. Chill.

 

[kats]

ACOREC - interesting post.

Tell me something, an old friend of mine gave me a Revox 2 track reel to reel(A77 or A80...I can't remember) the other day. Does this machine have the electronics to handle a hot enough signal to saturate the tapes without the circuit distortion?

If so I might try it out

 

[Beck]

So in other words, you believe that threatening strangers several thousand miles away with physical violence ... is somehow a good and producting thing for this forum ? ?



You need to calm down. You're taking all of this stuff way too seriously. Chill.

No, not at all. But that's what Blue Bear has been doing for some time now. Maybe not violence, as you are defining it, but intimidation nonetheless. No one can say the exact number of new people he has scared away, there are no statistics. I believe it's significant.

But who can say they enjoy his abuse even if they do keep coming back? Only people like Bruce who, regardless of their original intent, are using this forum to vent emotionally. I personally don't need it. I have a real punching bag in my garage - I highly recommend it.

Even I wouldn't be here if I wasn't more stubborn and tenacious than 10 of you put together, still wanting this to be what I had originally imagined - a place for learning and discussing recording and Music.

There is all the room in the world for strong unmovable opinions as far as I'm concerned. But there is no room for backstabbing and vandalism of a person's reputation. What you, Bruce or whoever is trying to do is maintain a world where you are always right. You attempt that not through reason and sound argument, but through sanctions and punishment via insults or misusing the rep feature.

To use a cliché, you can dish it out, but….

Your problem right now is you have crossed paths with someone who can dish it right back, will always call your bluff, will escalate way beyond your comfort zone (and follow through) and can speak bully fluently if need be to communicate in a language you can understand.

Speaking of that - it's funny, someone called me psycho once before, but only once that I recall. It was in the 8th grade when I jumped on three rather big and mean classmates by myself who were picking on a new kid from England. His father was in the military and got shipped back to the states with his British wife and kids who had grown up in England. They were, pushing him, making fun of the way he talked and he was crying like a baby asking them please to leave him alone. I couldn't stand it, and ended up hitting all three of them hard - knock down drag out lips bleeding -- total mayhem. They reacted just like Bear, "Hey man, what the hell is your deal?" Like I started it. That's how bullies are though. They don't feel anyone's pain but their own.

I still don't like bullies, even if they are scrawny pencil-necked cyber-bullies that would just make me feel sick to my stomach with pity at the thought of actually hitting them.

Anyway, I don't stay angry indefinitely - I've slept since yesterday. However, we simply have a problem here that needs to be resolved. I sincerely think meeting people in the flesh can solve things that text messages never will. I will never sneak up on you so don't worry about that.

I will announce my Presence with pride, "HELLO! MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA! YOU KILLED MY FATHER! PREPARE TO DIE!" Yeah, kinda like that. I'd say there would be plenty of time for a person of average stature to run and call the police. (but they'ed be on my side).

It should be obvious you're in no real pesonal danger at this point. I've articulated openly here what an ass hole I think Bruce is. I could have just sneaked up on him and left him negative rep and not said anything, like he has done to me, and not just recently.

I could setup a few bogus accounts and pad my "rep points" like many do. Ironically, my dwindling rep numbers show more honor and reputation, because I won't do that on principle.

I could take the Blue Bear Sound website down (I'm a computer programmer/consultant by day). I could rip his face off (a student of the martial arts since my youth and Shotokan Karate instructor since 1982).

See, there are a lot of things I could do. Yet, all I've done is tell you what I think and express my intentions to talk to you in person (whether you like it or not) because at this point I believe I know what's best for the situation. Come on man! People used to talk in person all the time before the Internet. What's the big deal? In fact one of dearest friends, well we just hated each other at first. He was one of those creepy Tae Kwon Do wackos that I was just sure cheated at tournament, but he turned out to be ok. So you never know.

So when the smoke clears what I'm really saying is, "I feel like ripping your face off so I think we should talk." Not many males in our culture are able to express themselves so well. I think I deserve a little credit for that.

By the way, the reason I'm smiling is I'm not left handed.