Turning digital into analog?

[dohhhhh6]

Hey, this should probably go into the noobie section, but I thought that the "vets" lingered here more, so I'd get some more various experienced answers.

I'm in a band that's going to be recording some demo tracks to put up on a local music site/give out to friends. It's purpose is simply to get out the basic feel of our group as the lowest cost to us with as decent quality as we can get.

We'll most likely be using some form of free digital program. Before I get to the topic question, I've considered learning how to use protools free, but I heard it sounds terrible, so what free digital program should I use? I'll be using digital because it'll allow me the most options in the cheapest package.

However, I know (as I have some experience) that digital doesn't sound as good as analog. I've heard of this process where you record digital and then run it through some analog source or a analog plug in to make it warmer. How does one go about such a process? Would simply running the track straight into an analog 4 track, then running that back into the digital world to be burnt on a cd work? Or is there a more complicated (or easier) process to add warmth to the recordings?

If a topic has been already done on this (I couldn't find any through the search), I'd appreciate a link.

Thank you for your time!
Tim

 

[ryanlikestorock]

You could record digitally then mix down to cassette tape but I'm not sure you'd get the desired effect. You could try it though. I know even cassette tape does wonders for cymbol sounds that digital recording seems to butcher.

Mic and preamp types as well as the actual sound of the instruments will make a huge difference though... definitely more than the digital problem.

 

[Beck]

A great many studios at all levels have been mastering to half-track reel-to-reel for years now to temper the harshness of digital tracks. It only works so well, but it is better than nothing.

After a lot of big name studios went totally digital a decade or more ago it wasn’t long before old Otari, Tascam and Revox machines were being rolled back out into service to remedy the “digital problem.”

There are absolutely no plugins in existence at this point in time that can faithfully mimic the character of analog. People get mixed results injecting tubes into the mix, but it all seems a lot more work than just investing in a basic open reel deck.

One of the best things a group can do is to invest in a used Tascam 22-2 or Fostex E2 reel-to-reel. Their role in the studio will be partly as a filtering effect, because you will mixdown to it first before your final digital master.

Keep in the back of you mind the old maxim, ”Garbage in, Garbage out.”

But all in all, I can vouch for the fact that my CDs sound better when I record them to reel-to-reel. It does warm it and smear it a bit, which is how the human ear would rather hear it – pain free!

 

[grn]

http://audacity.sf.net

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

...to temper the harshness of digital tracks....

 

[hueseph]

I hear that.

At any rate there are some plugins that try to mimic tape saturation but you need to use them sparingly. If you decide to go with audacity you could do a search for mda magneto which is a saturation emulator. Mind you I've found it's only convincing with drums. I wouldn't try to use it on vox. Digital doesn't have to be harsh. As aforementioned GIGO (Garbage in Garbage out). Take the time to choose appropriate mics and pay attention to your micing technique. There's simple rules like if the treble's too harsh, take the top end down a few notches. That should get rid of harshness. Subtractive eqing is generally a noise free process.

 

[c7sus]

What exactly about digital doesn't sound "as good" as analog???

Which digital???

Which analog???

I'd get a fast computer with a couple fast SATA drives, a Lynx Aurora8, and Sonar4PE. If you've got access to some decent mics and preamps you won't have to worrry about the medium.

That's about $3500US.

Or you can buy a computer and a PCI AES/EBU card and rent Apogee or Lucid converters. That's probably $2,000US with good recording sw plus rental costs.

Or book some time in a decently outfitted studio.

 

[deepwater]

You can buy one of the new Neve PorticoTM 5042 Duo Tape Channel things. I think they run around $1400.00.

http://www.rupertneve.com/porticorange.html

Two-channel “True Tape” Emulation. An actual tape drive circuit is used to drive a tiny magnetic circuit and fed to a replay loop and actual replay preamp. “Record” and “Replay” levels are counter-ganged to keep overall gain approximately constant that only varies, as a tape would, with saturation level. The frequency response is tailored to that of an actual tape recorder. The result is a remarkable simulation of true tape sound, providing the nostalgic rounding and compression that offsets the harshness of poor digital recorders. Use with care! The dynamic range of a tape recorder was a lot less than that of the high resolution Portico circuit in which it is nesting!

 

[Beck]

The problem with Bear is we get a 50/50 smattering of knowledge and blunt. Your experience would be impressive, but you attitude has shattered your credibility. You err if you think that’s not important.

Authoritative and narrow are often confused. Bear, you can’t badger everyone into accepting your narrow views against their better judgment. And if we could meet face-to-face you would see immediately that you couldn’t badger me into anything but your broken nose. If you ever get anywhere near the central U.S. let me know, I like to drive and we should talk. I’m not sure which it is – it’s hard to tell, but people like you either have been slapped around a lot or need to be.

My views on recording or anything else are my own. Nothing to do with “insipid rhetoric.” Recording since 1979, I lived through the “digital revolution” (was even part of it) and all the fads and trends you can name. While there are many veterans of the industry that share my views, my ears and musical sense are the reason I have my views. By the way, if you can't hear the subtleties between analog and digital recording you're not that good – website, credentials, and big studio not withstanding – doesn’t matter. Don’t take your shortcomings out on people who can hear.

Secondly, you (and everyone really) need to get a grip on what the “reputation” feature is for (if that was you who left me a negative signed Bear – maybe someone else – I don’t know). It’s not for dinging everyone who has a different approach than you. I can respect anyone who thoughtfully contributes to this forum from their experience, whether I agree or not.

I would never stoop so low as to leave a negative rep for someone who just saw things differently, and was obviously not attacking anyone – just sharing what they think. That is so foreign to me. That takes a very, very small man, and is completely without honor -- A lot more weasel than bear.

Your attacks on other members, including negative reputations, are not worthy of any respect whatsoever.

Your conduct does not show strength, character, or any depth of confidence in your views, but rather fear and fragility.

Thirdly, for all your posts and alleged experience you seem to know little about what is going on in other studios besides your own.

Finally, you have a lot more pressing issues than analog or digital, my friend. Having this forum as your personal punching bag may make you feel better in the short term, but it’s no cure for what’s ailing you.

Your not alone – there’s a lot of stunted ass holes on this bbs, but have you ever asked yourself why you can’t just express your opinion without throwing a fit?

I’m not impressed.

 

[diogo]

You could record digitally then mix down to cassette tape but I'm not sure you'd get the desired effect. You could try it though. I know even cassette tape does wonders for cymbol sounds that digital recording seems to butcher..

ive been thinking about mixing down from the analog outs of a delta 66, into a tape deck for this effect...

i think that - for the purpose of being a definitive mix, its a wrong means to an end. but i would like to do it to take with me and listen in the car, in the stereo, etc...

i cant afford tape, and i really dont want to get into that realm, for as much as i would love to. but do you guys know of other ways to get the desired effect? maybe a small reel to rell just for the sound, from the soundcard then back to it again? does this make sense? would i gain something from this?

if so, what would be a cheap reel to reel that would give me this effect? i would really go this way if it worked...

another way would be an old portastudio..i hear those imprint quite a caracther too...but for that alone, i guess a cheap reel to reel would be a lot cooler...

if the reel to reel is the answer here, a one track one would be enough to mixdown to, right?

anyone?

 

[Beck]

ive been thinking about mixing down from the analog outs of a delta 66, into a tape deck for this effect...

i think that - for the purpose of being a definitive mix, its a wrong means to an end. but i would like to do it to take with me and listen in the car, in the stereo, etc...

i cant afford tape, and i really dont want to get into that realm, for as much as i would love to. but do you guys know of other ways to get the desired effect? maybe a small reel to rell just for the sound, from the soundcard then back to it again? does this make sense? would i gain something from this?

if so, what would be a cheap reel to reel that would give me this effect? i would really go this way if it worked...

another way would be an old portastudio..i hear those imprint quite a caracther too...but for that alone, i guess a cheap reel to reel would be a lot cooler...

if the reel to reel is the answer here, a one track one would be enough to mixdown to, right?

anyone?

I'm not sure what your cost considerations are, but I would classify the smaller machines like the Tascam 22-2 and Fostex E2 or Model 20 as inexpensive and effective solutions for what you are trying to do.

The prices range wildly on ebay for any of the above models from $75.00 to $200.00 or more U.S.

I have a Tascam 22-2 and I absolutely love it, so I can whole-heartedly recommend it. As for the Fostex models, I would look for an E2 only because I’ve seen many comments about bending/breaking tension arms on the Model 20, which were less of a problem with the E2

The Tascam 22-2 is half-track on ¼’ tape @ 15 ips and very reliable with impressive specs for a little unit. It was built for and marketed to the home studio crowd, so is pretty uncomplicated and easy to get good sound out of.


Tim

 

[chessrock]

After a lot of big name studios went totally digital a decade or more ago it wasn’t long before old Otari, Tascam and Revox machines were being rolled back out into service to remedy the “digital problem.”

Problem? I didn't realize there was a "problem."

Thanks for telling me, though. Always more problems. I'm going to have to look in to this one like right away.

So glad I know, now. Whew. Never fear, though ... I'm going to try and solve this one, guys. I'll let you know if I get anywhere with it. Keep the faith.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

{...blah, blah, blah... snipped}

I’m not impressed.

You posted an extremely debatable opinion of "digtial harshness".... I debated and responded with implied disagreement by rolling my eyes.... so what's your fucking problem?

And I didn't give you negative feedback, but I'm tempted too now based on the spewage of your post............

 

[Track Rat]

I'm speechless.......

 

[acorec]

The problem with Bear is we get a 50/50 smattering of knowledge and blunt. Your experience would be impressive, but you attitude has shattered your credibility. You err if you think that’s not important.

Authoritative and narrow are often confused. Bear, you can’t badger everyone into accepting your narrow views against their better judgment. And if we could meet face-to-face you would see immediately that you couldn’t badger me into anything but your broken nose. If you ever get anywhere near the central U.S. let me know, I like to drive and we should talk. I’m not sure which it is – it’s hard to tell, but people like you either have been slapped around a lot or need to be.

My views on recording or anything else are my own. Nothing to do with “insipid rhetoric.” Recording since 1979, I lived through the “digital revolution” (was even part of it) and all the fads and trends you can name. While there are many veterans of the industry that share my views, my ears and musical sense are the reason I have my views. By the way, if you can't hear the subtleties between analog and digital recording you're not that good – website, credentials, and big studio not withstanding – doesn’t matter. Don’t take your shortcomings out on people who can hear.

Secondly, you (and everyone really) need to get a grip on what the “reputation” feature is for (if that was you who left me a negative signed Bear – maybe someone else – I don’t know). It’s not for dinging everyone who has a different approach than you. I can respect anyone who thoughtfully contributes to this forum from their experience, whether I agree or not.

I would never stoop so low as to leave a negative rep for someone who just saw things differently, and was obviously not attacking anyone – just sharing what they think. That is so foreign to me. That takes a very, very small man, and is completely without honor -- A lot more weasel than bear.

Your attacks on other members, including negative reputations, are not worthy of any respect whatsoever.

Your conduct does not show strength, character, or any depth of confidence in your views, but rather fear and fragility.

Thirdly, for all your posts and alleged experience you seem to know little about what is going on in other studios besides your own.

Finally, you have a lot more pressing issues than analog or digital, my friend. Having this forum as your personal punching bag may make you feel better in the short term, but it’s no cure for what’s ailing you.

Your not alone – there’s a lot of stunted ass holes on this bbs, but have you ever asked yourself why you can’t just express your opinion without throwing a fit?

I’m not impressed.

I can say that I use analog and digital all the time. I have read all these debates in a number of BBs' and I still don't quite understand what all the argument is over. I use a 24 channel HD recorder and an MCI 24 2" recorder all the time. I can say that I have heard a difference between these two and learned that either format just takes different recording techniques to get what you are after (except for the high-end digital stuff). I can also say that not 1 single musician or singer has ever told me that my recordings were harsh. The ones who cannot afford tape, I record in digital. They are quite happy with the final product. The ones who can afford tape are happy with theirs too. While strolling through my older recordings recently I tried to pin-down which ones were done in analog or digital. Of the tracks I have forgotten, I must say I can't tell you.There are plenty of all digital productions that are better sounding than 80% of analog productions.

I think the misiing link is that analog and low-cost digital require much different recording techniques to get the same type of sound. Once you are experienced in analog, digital can turn you off and visa-versa. And lastly, digital is a new technology in music and new, current technology costs $$$. You can't go to eBay, spend $200 on a tape machine that originally went for $2000 - up and compare it to digital recording stuff that costs $200.

Only recent comparison:
Studer 24 track 2" machine - $35,000
RADAR decked out digital system - $20,000

I have heard and used both of these systems. I cannot tell any sonic difference between the two at all.

So, you are right that a low-cost digital system is inferior to an expensive analog system (cheap on eBay), but an expensive digital system sounds like an expensive analog system because with great converters, the sound is just like tape with no hiss at all.
I like them both.

 

[Beck]

You posted an extremely debatable opinion of "digtial harshness".... I debated and responded with implied disagreement by rolling my eyes.... so what's your fucking problem?

And I didn't give you negative feedback, but I'm tempted too now based on the spewage of your post............

I haven't even started.

What’s my fucking problem? How about your 12,000 posts, half of which have done more to turn newcomers away than to make this a legitimate forum for people with a common interest. Frankly, this could be a nice place if it wasn’t for ass holes like you.

And you didn’t leave me a negative? Really? You posted your “response” to my post yesterday at 01:33 and I get a negative rep signed by Bear at 01:34. I suppose it’s possible someone set you (and me) up, but it doesn’t seem likely, considering the tone of nearly every post of yours I’ve seen.

I’ve tolerated your rantings since I first stumbled across this board. I manage to ignore them most of the time. But you’re a bully. I’m not going to waste my time trying to figure out what happened during your childhood to make you so disagreeable.

Just as the terrible Wizard of Oz with all his smoke and mirrors was just a tiny little man hiding behind a facade, so too are you Bruce.

Anyway, it’s like this – I want this forum to be a decent place where veterans and newbies alike can ask questions and offer suggestions without fear of dogs like you trying to chase them off the farm. And I’m not alone.

Door-to-door from my house to Gloucester is only 14 hours, 884 miles. Hmmm... Bruce, we're practically neighbors. I even have a sister who lives in Maine. Small world isn't it? And it seems even smaller to a hot-headed Scotsman like me who with nothing but contempt for bullies.

I’m through fucking around and have zero tolerance left for wanton abuse of forum members by your kind. So you can either step off or eat dirt. Do you understand? Probably not. Your kind don’t understand until they’re on the ground bleeding.

Oh, violence isn’t necessarily inevitable I suppose, but a face-to-face must take place. Often looking into the eyes of a real human being rather than a computer monitor will remind some how to blush and that will suffice. You’re a paper tiger and you know it, but still have to be reminded from time to time, don’t you..

I hope everyone realizes this forum is just cyber reality – 12,000 posts and padded reputations with phantom accounts is not real. It is no measure of a man’s expertise or status in the real world. There is really no quantifiable way on this forum to measure excellence or helpfulness. Consequently the chief ass hole of the galaxy can have 20,000 posts and 50 rep points -- it’s definitely not working.

 

[diogo]

I have a Tascam 22-2 and I absolutely love it, so I can whole-heartedly recommend it. As for the Fostex models, I would look for an E2 only because I’ve seen many comments about bending/breaking tension arms on the Model 20, which were less of a problem with the E2

The Tascam 22-2 is half-track on ¼’ tape @ 15 ips and very reliable with impressive specs for a little unit. It was built for and marketed to the home studio crowd, so is pretty uncomplicated and easy to get good sound out of.


Tim

Tim,

many thanks for the sugestions, ill look for them on ebay..although i would rather go with something tascam..i have a fostex mr8 and hate it to death.

just help me understand how would i do this, if you can...in my common sense view..i would say something like this:

have a mixdown signal from the analog out (delta 66) to the machine, the machine running, and the signal going directly into an analog in (delta 66)...

now, in my opinion, this can only work if the analog outs and the analog ins can function at the same time (wich i dont know cause i dont own the soundcard yet)....

my intention would be the signal just passing through the machine to add caracther/effect, and immediatly out....no dumping into tape...my logic is based on ppl's experience that a reel to reel can even work effectvily on an electric guitar chain between stomps!

please correct me if im wrong..

would hate to get one of these and then what i intended not being possible at all!

tanx!

 

[diogo]

while you're at it Tim..

could u please sugest some more machines...

tascam 22-2 nowhere on sight

fostex e2 a bit expensive...

ill will look for these still..but if u could throw some more names into the equation, i could watch out for a deal..

otari?
teac?

these come up more often...though its probably for a reason right?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

And you didn’t leave me a negative? Really? You posted your “response” to my post yesterday at 01:33 and I get a negative rep signed by Bear at 01:34.

Then I must've left the neg feedback... Good - after your nonsense I was regretting not having done so -- as it turns out, I did the right thing after all!

Door-to-door from my house to Gloucester is only 14 hours, 884 miles. Hmmm... Bruce, we're practically neighbors. I even have a sister who lives in Maine. Small world isn't it? And it seems even smaller to a hot-headed Scotsman like me who with nothing but contempt for bullies.

I’m through fucking around and have zero tolerance left for wanton abuse of forum members by your kind. So you can either step off or eat dirt. Do you understand? Probably not. Your kind don’t understand until they’re on the ground bleeding.

Oh, violence isn’t necessarily inevitable I suppose, but a face-to-face must take place.

Clearly, you have issues - maybe you didn't get enough suckling on your momma's teat when you were a baby -- you do realize that internet threats make you sound like a psycho, right?

idiot.....

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

my intention would be the signal just passing through the machine to add caracther/effect, and immediatly out....no dumping into tape...my logic is based on ppl's experience that a reel to reel can even work effectvily on an electric guitar chain between stomps!

Going through a good analog tape machine and not dumping to tape itself is like heading to the Mustang Ranch and "just looking"

You want real "analog warming" of the sound, you gotta pass the signal through the taping process.

If you have a 3-head machine, then you can playback right from freshly laid down on the tape, assuming your DAW I/O will handle in and out at the same time (...no, I'm not talking about the Mustang Ranch again...). If you have a 2-head macine (not recommended for ancillary reasons), then you'd have to go through the time-consuming process of laying it to tale and then rewinding and playing the tape back again.

HTH,

G.