trying to record a grand piano

[Han]

I've recorded the whole weekend with a jazzband, the pianist has a very nice touché and the PZM's sound just great, everybody is very happy about the piano sound.

I do have AKG C451's and Neumann LDC's, MXL LDC's, ribbons, MD441's, but recording the grand in one room together with the drums and horns must be done with the lid closed, so you'll need a pair of omnis because a pair of SDC's like C451 very close to the strings will make some strings sound much louder. So the alternative is recording with an opened lid which will cause a lot of spill.

In case you'll have to record only the piano, or the piano in a separate room you can use the PZM's with great success, but you'll be able to vary the sound by opening the lid a little or more, this will make the sound less 'direct'.

A grand piano is a challenge.

 

[ramjet]

PZM brands?

The PZM sounds like a good idea to me, I will be recording only the piano by itself and will never do any voice (well - never is a rash statement, who knows how good a singer my 9 month old granddaughter will be? ). I searched and there are several brands available. Any to particularly stay away from? Any that stand out as better? Will they connect to a standard preamp? I know I need another preamp if I do stereo but that's easy to understand.

Will they fit in a Christmas stocking?

 

[dgatwood]

Well, I don't know about spending "thousands" of dollars just to get a decent piano recording. But, I definitely think "professional" quality mics are called for. Some mics that come to mind would be a pair of Shure SM81s (NOT the el cheapo version you're using now). These are about $400 each, I think.

I've had good luck with the Shure VP88 as well. It's a mid-side stereo mic that runs just shy of $700. For a less expensive route, just find a pair of SDCs with the flattest response you can find.

Whatever you do, don't get something with over-hyped highs, and remember that pianos bottom out at 27.5 Hz. Too much bass roll-off is not a good thing. Your PG81 starts rolling off at 400 Hz, which is between the G and G# above middle C. You should immediately see why this could be a problem....

Either way, ditto with the suggestion of using a different preamp. For piano, you really want the cleanest preamp you can find. For some things, coloring the sound can be a good thing. For something with the complex harmonics of a piano, a tube preamp is just going to make everything sound like ass. For a not-too-expensive route, consider the Peavey PV8 mixer. It's about $110 with four preamped channels.

 

[mshilarious]

You can spend more money if you like, but it's not like the PG81 is a defective mic. It is not a karaoke mic. It is not a RS piece of crap (and yes the PZM is an exception to that). If you aren't getting a decent sound, then there is something wrong with placement or your room. Once you sort that out, then a better mic will make your sound go from decent to good or even great.

I don't think your room sounds as good as you think, which is probably a big part of your problem. Carpet + tile ceiling + curtains = dead room in mid to high frequencies. The PZM is probably a good idea in that situation since it will remove the room from the equation. Back when I had PZMs, I never tried that, but I trust Han's experience.

If you are really serious about a good sounding room, tear up the carpet and replace with hardwood, and fill the space above the tile with insulation. That's a start anyway.

Before you tear anything up or spend any money, read p. 8-9 of this:

http://www.shure.com/pdf/booklets/mics_for_music_studio.pdf

And I believe Muscle Shoals closed a year or so ago.

 

[Bassman Brad]

Why buy a PZM when there's "the old PZM trick"?

Note: Sorry for briefly sidetracking (but hopefully not completely hijacking) this thread, to address a side issue.

O.K. This is pretty basic (and ancient) information, so perhaps most of you know this already. Nevertheless, there are people at all different levels of experience on this board, so maybe a review is in order. For those of you who already know about the old recording engineer's trick about how to convert an omni mic into a PZM, please just disregard this post.

Let's remember that a PZM is nothing more than an omni microphone, which has been designed to hold the microphone capsule a tiny bit (about a 1/4" or so) above the boundary zone. Simple enough, right? However, once you understand that basic fact about what a PZM really is, then this gives you a lot of flexibility as recording engineers. In particular, you can start to look at a PZM as a type of micing technique, not just a type of microphone design. In other words, you can use this information to convert ANY OMNI MIC that you happen to have on hand into a PZM. All you have to do is position it so that the capsule is about a 1/4" away from the boundary and - voila! - you have an instant PZM. Some omnis, such as all of the Earthworks mics, and the Audix TR40's that I mentioned in a previous post, have a barrel (mic body) which is smaller than the head of the mic, which contains the capsule. These are ridiculously easy to turn into PZMs. Just lay the body of the mic against the piano lid (or whatever) and tape it down. The capsule will already be positioned slightly above (but not touching) the boundary. You're done! If you have a pair of C4's or another convertible SDC, such as the Peluso SDC, which has a capsule that is the same size as the body of the mic, you merely have to go to the extra effort to find a small piece of wood or cardboard (or whatever) to raise the capsule off of the boundary. But the technique still works. Heck, you don't even have to attach the mic to the boundary. You can just use a boom stand to position the capsule so that it is close, but not touching the boundary. (This assumes, of course, that the boundary will remain stationary.)

Anyway, since it is so incredibly easy to convert any omni mic into a PZM (and back again), I never really understood the need for recording engineers to go out and buy a dedicated PZM. We should just buy some omni mics, for the added flexibility that they offer. When you need a pair of omni mics, just put them up on mic stands and use 'em for omnis. When you need a PZM, convert one (or more) of your omnis into PZMs, and then switch them back again. The only time I've ever recommended somebody actually BUY a dedicated PZM is if somebody wanted to get a one or two mics to permanently attach to a lecturn or a piano lid. In THAT case, the asthetic value of a nicely designed PZM might justify buying one. But for those of us who use our mics on various sources, I personally believe that we are better off just having a nice set of omni's in our mic locker.

By the way, those Audix TR40 mics really are an outstanding value for value-minded home recording engineers. They are incredibly flat and accurate, and downright CHEAP, at a little under $200 per mic.

Brad

 

[Innovations]

No buddy, I'm not joking, a microphone isn't a camera, sound travels through air by moving it. A pair of PZM's taped to the lid will always work nicely. PZM's are omnis.

For a classic sound you'll need a very good room and a pair of hi end mics, but most classic CD's with piano concerts don't sound very good.

Listen to Norah Jones' piano in 'Come away with me', this is the sound you'll get from a nice sounding grand with a pair of PZM's, a clear sound with balance, I like that. (I'm not saying the piano was recorded by PZM's )

Listen to the sound of the piano in Diana Krall's 'The Look of Love', I believe this was recorded with a pair of Neumann LDC's. The sound isn't as bright and direct, it seems there's a blanket over the sound. Besides that te piano is slightly out of tune, I hate that.

Ok, given that you use a pair and play around with the placement so you are getting everything OK then they should work. The general impression about Radio Shack gear around here was giving me the thought that you weren't being 100 percent serious. Not everybody is ammenable to sticking stuff on their instrument and PZMs are restricted in recording other things. With the piano of course you luckily have that big lid right there.

 

[Innovations]

Speaking of steering someone in the right direction, given the budget that he's implying, don't you think you might want to rephrase that into "but don't get a second Art Tube MP"?

Some people have a hard time throwing aside the gear that they already have. I don't think that the problem that he is having is with the pre. Yes if starting from scratch I would suggest something like a DMP3.

 

[Innovations]

The PZM thing seems good to me. I would have no problem taping them to the underside of the lid.

I'm paranoid now however. I expect there a good and bad ones of those too.

- Innovations - I looked up those recommendations and they vary widely in price. Should I assume you get what you pay for in these choices and the most expensive choice is the best sound? Also you seemed apprehensive about the PZM idea. Is that the voice of experience? I like the idea but if there is a downside I'd like to know that.

The main downside for the PZM route is that they aren't all that flexible for recording other things. They are designed to be attached to a hard surface. With a piano lid that is no problem.

 

[bigtoe]

By the way, those Audix TR40 mics really are an outstanding value for value-minded home recording engineers. They are incredibly flat and accurate, and downright CHEAP, at a little under $200 per mic.

agreed - and i think the behringer ECM8000 jobs are the very same mic for 50 bucks.

Mike

 

[notCardio]

Ya learn something new every day

I guess I hadn't heard that old engineers' trick because I'm not an old engineer, just old.

So let me get this straight. I can in effect use an omni as a boundary (PZM) mic on a wall by setting it up in a stand with a boom and positioning it facing the wall with the head of the mic 1/4" or less from the wall. Or the same with a table. And not that you've had any personal experience with this mic, but the ubiquitous ECM8000's would fall into this category, correct?

Am I correct in my interpretation? If so, woo-hoo. I've got two more mics than I thought I had, and something else to experiment with.

Thanks, man.

 

[notCardio]

Geez, you guys type fast!

Oh, I guess it's just that I'm that slow.
I'm always amazed at how many people reply while I'm composing mine.

 

[Bassman Brad]

So let me get this straight. I can in effect use an omni as a boundary (PZM) mic on a wall by setting it up in a stand with a boom and positioning it facing the wall with the head of the mic 1/4" or less from the wall. Or the same with a table. And not that you've had any personal experience with this mic, but the ubiquitous ECM8000's would fall into this category, correct?

Or the inside lid of a grand piano, or whatever. . .

Yep, that's basically all there is to it. Enjoy your new PZM's dude!


Bassman

 

[Bassman Brad]

They're the same mic?

agreed - and i think the behringer ECM8000 jobs are the very same mic for 50 bucks.

Mike

Wow! Is that really true? I didn't know that. But if that's really the case, then that's just AWESOME!

I haven't added an omni pair to my collection, yet, so I just might need to pick up a pair of those. (Although I'll be buying a set of Peluso's very soon and will probably get a pair of omni caps for those, eventually, I have still been considering the TR40's pretty seriously. If I can get a pair of mics that are identical to the TR40s for only a hundred bucks, then I might go ahead and get a pair of those, in addition to the Peluso's.)

Of course, in my experience, ANYTHING made by Behringer sucks so badly that I'd be afraid that simply the process of silkscreening the word "Behringer" on it would probably make it sound bad.

Bassman

 

[Richard Monroe]

Thanks for the tip, if it works. I've got a pair of ECM8000's that have never found much use. For me, bleed, or spill, as Han calls it, is not an issue. I want to capture the piano (a baby grand) alone.

To the original poster, I have no real experience with grand piano, but a fair amount with a baby grand, and a console (smaller than a standup, bigger than a spinet). I have no formal technical training, but what I've learned is this- A piano is kind of like a big guitar. It's like a guitar in that different parts of it make different sounds, radically different, so there are many possibilities in mic placement. Mouths are small, one mic works fine for vox. Almost everyone uses at least 2 mics with a piano, because it's so damn big. I've had my best luck with 2 Neuman KM184's. I have also had good luck with an overgrown Decca tree, three omnis arranged in a triangular array. Unlike a standard Decca tree, the mics in this case are 3-4' apart, over the piano.

I've never had 3 identical omnis, so I've used a lot of mismatched combos. The local winnner is a B.L.U.E. Kiwi on the bass side of the soundboard, a C414B-ULS on the treble side, and a Studio Projects C-4 on the far tip of the soundboard. The room I do this in rocks, and I want some room sound, so an open lid and some omnis doesn't bother me a bit.-Richie

 

[Bassman Brad]

Thanks for the tip, if it works.

Oh, it DOES work. (And you're welcome.)

If you think about where you usually see PZM's being used, you can clearly see why an omni capsule is called for AND you can see the problems that PZM's are intended to fix. The two applications that I see them used for are on the underside of a grand piano lid and on the top of a lecturn that a speaker is using. When used with a lecturn, an omni mic will give you less proximity effect, a flatter response, and a bit of room sound. In other words, it will sound the most like the "natural" sound of the speaker's voice in the room. On the piano, you need an omni for the flat response, and a broad enough pattern that you can (hopefully) pick up the whole piano with just a couple of mics. As you've pointed out, this can be a real challenge.

However, with both sources, you've also got a huge baffle in close proximity of the omni capsule. If you use a regular omni mic, then you have to worry about comb filtering, because part of the sound will reach the capsule directly, and part of it will hit the capsule a few milliseconds later, after bouncing off of the baffle (or the "boundary," to use the proper PZM lexicon).

A PZM mic is nothing more than an omni capsule that has been placed close enough to the boundary that the frequencies which will be cut out from phase cancellation are shifted to a range that is beyond human hearing - or at least high enough that it doesn't damage intelligibility.

I've never had 3 identical omnis, so I've used a lot of mismatched combos. The local winnner is a B.L.U.E. Kiwi on the bass side of the soundboard, a C414B-ULS on the treble side, and a Studio Projects C-4 on the far tip of the soundboard. The room I do this in rocks, and I want some room sound, so an open lid and some omnis doesn't bother me a bit.-Richie

Now I've got a question for you, Richard. Have you had problems getting three different mics (that sound very different) to sound "cohesive" when they are combined in the final mix? Wouldn't the sound of the piano change pretty dramatically when the pianist changes octaves?

Just curious about how you've dealt with this.

Brad

 

[ausrock]

This same subject has been discussed recently by some experienced engineers on another forum. The consensus of opinion points to PZMs in various configurations...........

1 PZM inside the lid with a 58 underneath aimed up at the soundboard, the same only with 2 PZM's or 2 PZM's taped to the frame underneath so that they point up to the soundboard or if you only have 1 PZM sit in on the floor or on a pillow under the piano. I dare say the inventive person could find other options.

On the subject of using omnis as PZM mics, I get the impression that some people have interpreted this as POINTING the mic at a flat surface. I would have thought that the mic should be aimed PARALLEL to the flat surface which is the way the capsules are positioned in my PZM's. In regard to the Behringer ECM8000 mics, although this may apply to similar (cheapish) SMALL diaphragm omni condensers (Not the Medium Smalls like 603's, C4's, etc)............it is wise to try them out before buying them. Specifically, run them through a preamp and gradually turn the gain up, listen for the onset of self-noise (HISS). On some this is audible fairly quickly, discard these and look for the mics that don't hiss excessively until higher gain levels are reached.

 

[Bassman Brad]

Yeah, I WAS a little unclear.

On the subject of using omnis as PZM mics, I get the impression that some people have interpreted this as POINTING the mic at a flat surface. I would have thought that the mic should be aimed PARALLEL to the flat surface which is the way the capsules are positioned in my PZM's. In regard to the Behringer ECM8000 mics, although this may apply to similar (cheapish) SMALL diaphragm omni condensers (Not the Medium Smalls like 603's, C4's, etc)............it is wise to try them out before buying them. Specifically, run them through a preamp and gradually turn the gain up, listen for the onset of self-noise (HISS). On some this is audible fairly quickly, discard these and look for the mics that don't hiss excessively until higher gain levels are reached.

You've raised some excellent points, here, Ausrock. In general, it IS important to use mics with the smallest diaphragm possible, when attempting this trick. What I actually had in mind when I made the post were those ultra-flat omnis such as the Earthworks, or the Audix TR-40s (or ECM8000's, if those are the same mic), or something similar to that. After thinking about it for awhile, I realized that, when I said that you can use any omni mic in this fashion, then I could picture people switching their AT4050's into omni mode, and trying to use THOSE as PZM's. Or they might try it with something like the Electrovoice 635a, a dynamic omni which probably wouldn't let you get the diaphram close enough to the surface to work, because of its ball windscreen. (Although I'd have to look at one again. The ball isn't very wide on the sides, so you MIGHT be able to get this to work.) Anyway, once I started thinking about this, I thought, "Hmm. Perhaps I should clarify the details a little bit."

As far as the direction in which you would want to point the mic, well, I certainly would NOT recommend simply pointing the mic directly AT the boundary. If you look at a polar graph, you will quickly see that even the really nice omni's aren't perfectly omnidirectional. There will be some mild changes in response as you move around the mic, which are usually greatest at the 180 degree mark. However, it's not absolutely critical that the mic is perfectly parallel to the boundary, either. This won't usually be physically possible if you have the mic on a mic stand with a shock mount. About the only time that this trick would be likely to actually be USED in real world recording situations would be when micing a grand piano. You'd just stick the mics in through the lid and get the diaphragms as close as possible to the inside of the lid, without touching it, and you're probably going to end up with the mics at something like a 45 degree angle off of perfectly parallel. This should be "close enough for rock and roll."

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused.

Brad

 

[mshilarious]

Incidentally, the reason I didn't keep my PZMs (Shures, quite a bit more pricy than the Crowns!) was because of noise. I had the cardioid version (yes, Shure does supply them with different capsules), which at 23dB has similar noise to the ECM8000 et al. Beyond that, the boundary effect seemed to exaggerate room noise more than signal. So to me they never sounded great for recording, and live they were feedback machines.

Just a word of caution for anyone who might try something other than the well-known Crown taped to the lid technique.

 

[notCardio]

As far as the direction in which you would want to point the mic, well, I certainly would NOT recommend simply pointing the mic directly AT the boundary. If you look at a polar graph, you will quickly see that even the really nice omni's aren't perfectly omnidirectional. There will be some mild changes in response as you move around the mic, which are usually greatest at the 180 degree mark.

I hadn't thought of that.

I just assumed that, being omni, I could point it whatever way I wanted, as long as I got the capsule the required distance from the surface.

 

[giraffe]

good read, keep it up and thank you!