trying to record a grand piano

[ramjet]

I've searched this forum and apparently not many people try to record pianos at home.

I have an MAudio Delta 66 sound card for my PC that does a great job recording my Kurzweil Mark 10 keyboard and I'd like to record my Yamaha G7 acoustic grand piano.

I have a TubePre preamplifier and a Shure PG81 microphone and frankly it sounds like crap. I sounds like the piano is in a box or something, it doesn't even come close to actually sounding like the real piano. I've tried many different locations for the mic, many different levels etc. I can make it worse but not better.

The question, of course, is: Is it possible to record a grand piano and have it sound realistic without having to buy studio level microphones for thousands? If so, what would be a recommendation for something that would provide quality sound at a home recording price? Or- is it an unreasonable expecation to be able to do it at all and I should forget it.

Thanks for any help.

Frustrated in Michigan

 

[Juggernaut]

Do you have to spend thousands to get a good recording? -No

But you do need to invest some if you want something useable.

I don't know what type of pre you have but with your interface that is the first step. A solid recomendation is the FMR RNP which gives you two channels of preamplification for stereo recording. Then you would want two similar microphones. Personally I use a pair of used Russian Oktavas I picked up at Guitar Center for $50, but any decent set of SDC's or some LDC's will do. Other examples include the SP C4s and MXL 604s.

I hope I was some assistence more information would help us give you better recomendations.

 

[northsiderap]

Mic'ing a Piano

an XY pair under the open cover seems to work well for me. You kinda have to shuffle 'em around to get a decent spread on the EQ.

I've also mic'd behind the piano player's head for lots of key attack, but that was in a tiled floor/cedar walled room...

I tried behind the piano down at the strings with an XY pair, that worked OK...

I used 2 Oktava MK012's through a Presonus BlueTube. Not too bad for what it was. A little BBE and EQ on that mix and it sat nicely in a mix.

 

[Bassman Brad]

Well, I don't know about spending "thousands" of dollars just to get a decent piano recording. But, I definitely think "professional" quality mics are called for. Some mics that come to mind would be a pair of Shure SM81s (NOT the el cheapo version you're using now). These are about $400 each, I think. I've definitely had good results with these on piano. Also, the Peluso CEM6C are ony about $600 for a matched stereo pair, and are supposed to be REALLY nice. (Those are the next mics I'll personally buy.) Then, you should also consider the Audix TR-40's, which are inexpensive (less than $200 each, I think) omni mics, which are accurate enough to be used for testing purposes. The ADK TL's would also be a good choice, although at $1000/pair, those are probably over your budget.

And as for micing technique, you can either use an XY configuration or spaced pair.

Lot's of luck!

Brad

 

[Han]

A pair of PZM's taped to the lid, done.

 

[bigtoe]

i'd probably try to minimize the room...that's probably where your problems are coming in. so try to close mic the beast. is it near any reflective walls?

go in the lid like hans suggested (PZM's rule in that application) or use one on top pointed in/ under the lid and one underneath micing the sound board.

So many variables, but depending on the program material you could do a lot worse than the behringer 8000 things and whatever type of preamp. never heard the cheapie shures yer using...but i'd bet the room/placememnt is giving you more problems than the mic.

Good luck,

Mike

 

[Innovations]

You don't have to spend thousands, but you do need to record in stereo (because the piano is too big to be really covered in a single mic) and you do need a mic with a flat response across the whole spectrum. compare the spec sheet of your PG

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pdf/spec/270289.pdf

With one of many more suitable mics.

http://www.mxlmics.com/condencer_mic/mxl604/mxl604.htm

 

[notCardio]

and it depends on your expectations

I have a feeling that when you say 'sounds realistic' you're not expecting it to sound like a professional recording, because that would involve more than just high quality equipment. I would think that the most important factors would be the piano you're playing, and the space you're recording it in. If you like the sound of your piano in the place you're playing it, you've got half the battle won already. Now all you need is something that will reproduce what you're hearing relatively accurately. Is this correct?

And for starters, no acoustic instrument will sound 'realistic' if you're trying to record it with only one mic. There's your 'boxy' sound right there. And I'm referring to the stereo spread, not frequency response. You (hopefully) don't hear with one ear.

 

[bigtoe]

And for starters, no acoustic instrument will sound 'realistic' if you're trying to record it with only one mic. There's your 'boxy' sound right there. And I'm referring to the stereo spread, not frequency response. You (hopefully) don't hear with one ear.

i politely disagree with ya. back in the day - mono sounded pretty good, sometimes with only one mic.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/mercury.html

Mike

 

[notCardio]

let me clarify

I'm not saying mono can't sound 'good', especially in a mix situation, but my guess is that even most 'home'-reccer's wouldn't be satisfied with the mono sound of even the highest quality studio recordings of the mono era. He didn't say whether it was solo piano or not, but if it was, I still bet that what he's calling boxy is predominantly a result of it being mono. Yes, you can have boxy sounding stereo, of course, but it's just that much more pronounced in mono.

Of course, this is just my take on it, my opinion. I'm certainly always open to the possibility that I may be wrong.

 

[bigtoe]

Of course, this is just my take on it, my opinion. I'm certainly always open to the possibility that I may be wrong.

same here! you have a totally valid opine...

see, i'm no modernist. a lot of my favorite recordings are mono...and i personally wouldn't mind having one big ear on my forehead...the side things make it complicated.

boxy, to me is almost all about reflections (mic choice being another big one) and them things happen in mono or stereo.

later...

Mike

 

[notCardio]

"boxy, to me is almost all about reflections (mic choice being another big one) and them things happen in mono or stereo."

Interesting - I'll have to think about that one awhile. I guess I need to go back and listen to some more mono recordings. Of course, either way, I doubt ramjet's going to be going to 2" tape using a Telefunken mic in a concert hall.

And I'm certainly not trying to start a stereo vs mono debate, but to me the term 'realistic' means that you can close your eyes and it sounds like it's there in front of you. This, to me, would require the sense of space that is imparted by those reflections that you mention, the different frequencies coming from different directions (lower notes more to one side, higher more to the other) which would require stereo.

I'm still curious as to what ramjet (man, I loved that cartoon) means by 'realistic'. Hopefully that doesn't mean he wants it to sound like it's been done with Radio Shack equipment. (All right, altogether now-groan)

Shutting up now.

 

[ramjet]

A little more information

Thanks a lot for the quick thoughtful responses. I'm new at this but it sure is interesting and fun.

I actually don't know if 'in a box' is the right description of the sound. It just sounds dead and lifeless like it's some different instrument. The notes don't sound clear and bell like, like the piano does. I agree that stereo would be an improvement but I really think the recording is not accurate.

First, I started with an M-Audio Delta66 sound card for my less than a year old IBM Think Center PC, it's pretty fast and has lots of RAM and disk space. I connected my Kurzweil Mk10 keyboard audio out to it. To record I use Cool Edit and save to windows WAV files because Cool Edit recommends that for burning to CD. I then just use Roxio to burn the CD's. They sound terrific. I started doing this because my 86 year old Mother always liked to have me play for her. I'm not all that good but - hey - she's my Mom - she's supposed to think I'm great. Anyway she moved, can't get back and I make recordings for her.

I can play my actual piano better than the keyboard and just had $10,000.00 worth of renovation done to it and want to record it. I started with a really cheap $29 Radio Shack mic just to see if I could do it.

I bought a TubePre preamplifier (that's all it says on it). It's one channel and just has a gain control, level control and a couple buttons for phantom voltage and something else. It worked so I got the Shure microphone which actually I don't think sounds any better than the $29 Radio Shack one.

I've tried putting it essentially under the lid, tried both sides, moved it away at various differences, I even tried putting it under the sound board. I can make it worse but it never gets better.

It's a 15X25 ' room with carpet, acoustic ceiling and curtains. The piano sounds awesome there. I don't expect 'Muscle sholes' (are they still there?) quality but this is very annoying to listen to.

I don't mind spending $500 to $600 for very good quality sound but I think you could get screwed too.

What are PZMs? Is that a brand name or model or what?

My first name is Roger and when I was a kid people called me Roger Ramjet, some still do.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Han]

As a matter for fact the Radio Shack PZM sounds very good inside a grand, swap the 1.5 v battery for a 9v and make it balanced, there are two wires in the wire already.

Radio Shack!

 

[ramjet]

Realistic to me

You are correct that what I mean by realistic is that it sounds as close to the real thing as possible within a 'realistic' budget.

Unfortunately I think I have 'Realistic' sound now.

 

[Han]

This is a PZM, Pressure Zone Microphone, there's a small diaphragn in the gap between the plate and the upper holder thing. It's an omni and great for piano's, as a room mic and many other applications.

 

[Innovations]

Thanks a lot for the quick thoughtful responses. I'm new at this but it sure is interesting and fun.

I actually don't know if 'in a box' is the right description of the sound. It just sounds dead and lifeless like it's some different instrument. The notes don't sound clear and bell like, like the piano does. I agree that stereo would be an improvement but I really think the recording is not accurate.

First, I started with an M-Audio Delta66 sound card for my less than a year old IBM Think Center PC, it's pretty fast and has lots of RAM and disk space. I connected my Kurzweil Mk10 keyboard audio out to it. To record I use Cool Edit and save to windows WAV files because Cool Edit recommends that for burning to CD. I then just use Roxio to burn the CD's. They sound terrific. I started doing this because my 86 year old Mother always liked to have me play for her. I'm not all that good but - hey - she's my Mom - she's supposed to think I'm great. Anyway she moved, can't get back and I make recordings for her.

I can play my actual piano better than the keyboard and just had $10,000.00 worth of renovation done to it and want to record it. I started with a really cheap $29 Radio Shack mic just to see if I could do it.

I bought a TubePre preamplifier (that's all it says on it). It's one channel and just has a gain control, level control and a couple buttons for phantom voltage and something else. It worked so I got the Shure microphone which actually I don't think sounds any better than the $29 Radio Shack one.

I've tried putting it essentially under the lid, tried both sides, moved it away at various differences, I even tried putting it under the sound board. I can make it worse but it never gets better.

It's a 15X25 ' room with carpet, acoustic ceiling and curtains. The piano sounds awesome there. I don't expect 'Muscle sholes' (are they still there?) quality but this is very annoying to listen to.

I don't mind spending $500 to $600 for very good quality sound but I think you could get screwed too.

What are PZMs? Is that a brand name or model or what?

My first name is Roger and when I was a kid people called me Roger Ramjet, some still do.

Thanks for the help.

I believe that the people talking about the PZM's are just joking.

What is going on is that you are trying to mic up close something that is really big so you are getting heavy representation of what you are close to.

In the same way you are using a microphone with a bit of tunnel vision. It picks up some frequencies much better than others. If you still want to stick with a single mic get far enough away that the mic 'sees' the whole instrument. but that still won't fix the fact that it is a mic with a response designed for just voice. You want something with a complete frequency response. And if you want to get close then you need two of them in order to 'see' the whole instrument. The folks that have suggested a pair of Octavas or the Studio Projects C4 or the Rode NT5 or the MXL 603S or MXL 993 are all steering you in the right direction. If you go with two mics you will need either a dual channel preamp or a second ArtTubeMP.

The whole thing can certainly be done for under 500.

 

[Han]

I believe that the people talking about the PZM's are just joking.

What is going on is that you are trying to mic up close something that is really big so you are getting heavy representation of what you are close to.

In the same way you are using a microphone with a bit of tunnel vision. It picks up some frequencies much better than others. If you still want to stick with a single mic get far enough away that the mic 'sees' the whole instrument. but that still won't fix the fact that it is a mic with a response designed for just voice. You want something with a complete frequency response. And if you want to get close then you need two of them in order to 'see' the whole instrument. The folks that have suggested a pair of Octavas or the Studio Projects C4 or the Rode NT5 or the MXL 603S or MXL 993 are all steering you in the right direction. If you go with two mics you will need either a dual channel preamp or a second ArtTubeMP.

The whole thing can certainly be done for under 500.

No buddy, I'm not joking, a microphone isn't a camera, sound travels through air by moving it. A pair of PZM's taped to the lid will always work nicely. PZM's are omnis.

For a classic sound you'll need a very good room and a pair of hi end mics, but most classic CD's with piano concerts don't sound very good.

Listen to Norah Jones' piano in 'Come away with me', this is the sound you'll get from a nice sounding grand with a pair of PZM's, a clear sound with balance, I like that. (I'm not saying the piano was recorded by PZM's )

Listen to the sound of the piano in Diana Krall's 'The Look of Love', I believe this was recorded with a pair of Neumann LDC's. The sound isn't as bright and direct, it seems there's a blanket over the sound. Besides that te piano is slightly out of tune, I hate that.

 

[ramjet]

PZM recommendations

The PZM thing seems good to me. I would have no problem taping them to the underside of the lid.

I'm paranoid now however. I expect there a good and bad ones of those too.

- Innovations - I looked up those recommendations and they vary widely in price. Should I assume you get what you pay for in these choices and the most expensive choice is the best sound? Also you seemed apprehensive about the PZM idea. Is that the voice of experience? I like the idea but if there is a downside I'd like to know that.

 

[notCardio]

The folks that have suggested a pair of Octavas or the Studio Projects C4 or the Rode NT5 or the MXL 603S or MXL 993 are all steering you in the right direction. If you go with two mics you will need either a dual channel preamp or a second ArtTubeMP.

The whole thing can certainly be done for under 500.

Speaking of steering someone in the right direction, given the budget that he's implying, don't you think you might want to rephrase that into "but don't get a second Art Tube MP"?