Trying to get some drum tracks on the GP9 out for review, but...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Seeker of Rock
  • Start date Start date
So 1/4 main output is nominal level +4 dbu, but still unbalanced, got it.
I guess that is why when I send a signal from that 1/4 main mix out to an unbalanced -10 input device, it is overpowering and I have to ease back on the main faders. I don't use that method much anymore.

I usually use the bus for mixdown because of the convenience of patching the tape outputs to different units.

Thanks for clearing that info though.
 
Dr ZEE said:
Nop. :)
TRS MainMix, Mix-B, Control Room Out and Studio Out - are all unbalanced (tip - high/signal, ring and sleeve - ground), nominal level is +4dBu.
You can connect it with any unbalance input of recorder/amp just fine, but watch rec level on your recorder if your recorder's inputs are set/designed for -10dBV operating level.
The two XLR outs on the back panel of the board are the only fully balanced main mix outs (with maximum level +28 dBu).
Subgroups outs on the back are balanced and they also can be used for unbalanced connection, and you can set operating level (-10dBV/+4dBu) for 1-4 and 5-8 subs.
Click to expand...

So the actually outputs, though unbalance, are running at the level of balanced signals? That could explain why the CDRW was getting so strong of a signal from the board. I was pushing the meters slightly into the reds on the master as well. I'll have to play with it a little. Now I have a -10/+4 for the channels, I wonder if I have something like that for the master outputs as well. If not, I need to pull back the LR faders to weaken the signal a little?
 
I think you will get better signal if you use the bus outputs and set them at -10.

You won't have to pull back on the faders as much and you will get a fuller sound.
 
I was meaning to group them anyway (since they comprise six channels) to help me control them better during mixdown. Looks like everything will be sent to the busses then, since I need that pad. :)
 
When you say group do you mean? -
SEND SOME CHANNELS TO BUS 1-2, SOME CHANNELS TO BUS 3-4, etc?
 
You can use subs/subs-outs to record stereo-mix of selected/assigned channels, of course.
However, you should be able to record main mix out from your board without any problems. I am not sure what is the problem with "too hot signal". Your recorder has nice big-Knob in the middle - use it :).... whether you attenuate the recording signal by mixer's fader, by -10-switch or by rec-level knob - at the end it's all the same.
One thing to check with your CD-Recorder. I'm no expert there, but it has some "strange" record settings options, where you can set analog and digital inputs to be mixed for recording (?), where the analog signal level being set by rec-level knob, then digital input signal is being attenuated by 12 and then the analog/digital signal "mix" level is being set/controlled in digital volume menue. Alright, I really don't know for sure what this all about and what it may be useful for... you gotta check your cd-rw700 manual. But I think, that you may want to double check, to make sure that you set your recorder's record inputs to "Analog" (not Opt+Analog and not Coax+Analog)... push the REC SELECT key. (???)

/respects
 
Since the main 1/4 outputs are TRS jacks, I guess you need a TRS to RCA cable for that CDR.
The TRS to RCA cables I see go from 1 TRS jacks to 2 RCA jacks.

Unless you know of any cables, you could use a TRS to 1/4 inch mono adapter, I did see one of those at Musiciansfriend, then a 1/4 inch mono to RCA cable to the CDR.

I have used those outputs with just mono 1/4 inch jacks just to get a live drum part I was writing on a little tascam 424 so I could go back and redo it on sequencers, but is was so overpowering that I moved that operation to mix B.
Maybe with that adapter it would be different? I don't know.


I use the submaster outputs to mixdown because I'm always either mixing from tape to digital or from digital to tape - so with using the tape returns and submaster outputs, changing direction of the audio is just a few buttons.
 
Just a quick question.

If an output jack is 1/4"-TRS-balanced, and you put a 1/4"-TS-unbalanced plug into it, isn't it the case that the "shielded" side of the TRS gets shunted to one of the other leads, and therefore it functions as a simple TS-unbalanced output, with no undue side effects?

If that's the case, (still seeking clarification),... then you could use a simple 1/4"-TS-to-RCA patch cable, without any further consideration?

Point in case,... or how I'm drawing an analogy maybe,... is that I recently scored a Tascam 788, which sports 1/4"-TRS-balanced INPUTS, but the manual says it accepts 1/4"-TS-UNbalanced inputs without any problem. :eek:

Thanx
 
Reel is correct here. On the mackie you just need a 1/4 ts by rca to go to your recorder. And you should have all of your buttons on the back of your mixer set to -10.
 
A Reel Person said:
If an output jack is 1/4"-TRS-balanced, and you put a 1/4"-TS-unbalanced plug into it, isn't it the case that the "shielded" side of the TRS gets shunted to one of the other leads, and therefore it functions as a simple TS-unbalanced output, with no undue side effects?

If that's the case, (still seeking clarification),... then you could use a simple 1/4"-TS-to-RCA patch cable, without any further consideration?

Point in case,... or how I'm drawing an analogy maybe,... is that I recently scored a Tascam 788, which sports 1/4"-TRS-balanced INPUTS, but the manual says it accepts 1/4"-TS-UNbalanced inputs without any problem.
Click to expand...

This board, the 24 channel Mackie 8 bus, has 2 main outputs -
Main L/R output via XLR balanced
Main L/R output via 1/4 inch TRS unbalanced

I don't know how, or why the Main L/R TRS output is unbalanced, but that is what the manual says.

A simple 1/4 inch TS cable from that output does have side effects, mainly that the signal is too hot. I know cause this is the board I use and I've tested it.

The manual says to use the Main L/R XLR outputs to send signal to DAT/2-track mixdown recorder. That would be the best signal from the board if your mixdown machine had balanced inputs.

But it also says you can use these 1/4 inch outputs as well to connect to 2-track master recorder..

They never worked right for me with what I had.

Your right about the balance to unbalance connection being automatic.
The board will automatically unbalance a signal, or tie the ring to ground depending on what is plugged into what.
 
I had the mackie 24/8 for a few years and if I remeber right they had some funny ideas when it came to output levels and their meters.
Watch the meters on your machines and forget about the mackie ones.
And like I mentioned earlier check your output switches on the back.
All of them.
 
Thanks for the info, man. I have a new sample posted. I may have gone too far the other way, though. What is really killing me is the 60 cycle hum. Everything seems fine until I push play or play/record. Even with an area of tape not that has nothing on it, I push play and instant 60 cycle hum. Problem is, it is also being picked up on tape as you can hear on the sample. I faded the beginning in though you can still hear it, and let the machine record without playing after the drum samples where you can hear it even better. Any ideas what may be causing this? :( :confused:

Oh yeah, link. I don't have the "VIP" membership, so the link takes you to my site first. Sorry.
The new sample is at the top, "MSR drumsample".

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=244666
 
A Reel Person said:
If an output jack is 1/4"-TRS-balanced, and you put a 1/4"-TS-unbalanced plug into it, isn't it the case that the "shielded" side of the TRS gets shunted to one of the other leads, and therefore it functions as a simple TS-unbalanced output, with no undue side effects?
Click to expand...
In most cases that should be fine, most output stages have some kind of buffering or output protection (a series resistor does the job) to prevent any problems.

'Mono-ing up' a balanced TRS output to TS as described would result in zero (or very little) signal - the out of phase hot and return on a balanced output would zero out.
 
Herm said:
I had the mackie 24/8 for a few years and if I remeber right they had some funny ideas when it came to output levels and their meters.
Watch the meters on your machines and forget about the mackie ones.
And like I mentioned earlier check your output switches on the back.
All of them.
Click to expand...
I thought Mackie used 0dBm as 0VU, instead of +4 'pro' level. In any case it wouldn't hurt to run tone to make sure that 0 on everything really is 0!

If the Mackie output level is too hot a simple resistive pad will sort things out, or there are a range of devices from Tascam and others to convert a balanced to unbalanced signal and vice versa. If you wanted to be really nice I could post a simple circuit using one TL072 per channel to drop the level....but if you're not into electronics either running a lower level or getting one of the ready-made interfaces would be easier.
 
Seeker of Rock said:
Thanks for the info, man. I have a new sample posted. I may have gone too far the other way, though. What is really killing me is the 60 cycle hum. Everything seems fine until I push play or play/record. Even with an area of tape not that has nothing on it, I push play and instant 60 cycle hum. Problem is, it is also being picked up on tape as you can hear on the sample. I faded the beginning in though you can still hear it, and let the machine record without playing after the drum samples where you can hear it even better. Any ideas what may be causing this? :( :confused:
Click to expand...
60 Hz is usually induced hum (e.g. having power too close to audio leads or equipment) or an earth loop. 120 Hz is inadequate smoothing. (50 or 100 Hz 'over here'). You can also get harmonics of these, especially when its bad.

Check the routing of all your mains cables, listening while you move them to hear if there's any change. Keep them away from audio, especially the unbalanced snakes between your MSR and Mackie.

Also make sure you keep mains away from anything with a transformer or other kind of inductor - transformer balanced vintage gear, guitar pickups, etc etc.

If you've got an earth loop its tricky. Try to run everything on the same circuit - I don't know what current draw you have on an average circuit in the US, but in NZ where they're generally 230V/10A one plug (maybe a dual or four way with a couple of power boards) you can run a lot of equipment before you're even close to getting a problem. If you're 120V/10A then you've only got about half the power, but still enough to run a stripped-down setup with your MSR, Mackie and monitors.

Run as little as possible, and if you loose the hum just keep putting stuff back in until it comes back. Then you know what the problem is.
 
witzendoz said:
It's easy to build your own pads,, check out this site: http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/
Click to expand...
Good link, exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. You're talking 30c (NZ) worth of resistors, plus parts you'd need anyway to make a cable.

Seeker, if you were in Southland NZ I'd make up a couple in exchange for borrowing your studio for the monitors and Mackie sometime :D
 
Seeker of Rock said:
I have a new sample posted. I may have gone too far the other way, though.
Click to expand...
Definately a lot better, although the tape hiss and hum are definately noticeable. Tape hiss doesn't have to be a huge problem (listen to the start of the title track from U2 - October; Steve Lillywhite didn't mind it), but the hum definately needs work.

Not sure on the snare sound, but that could be mic placement. Something still sounds a little distorted to me, but I'm not exactly listening on the best equipment (onboard laptop audio and headphones anyone? :eek: )
 
here's mackie's consoles main outs block diagram
 

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here's pair of subs block diagram
 

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