Tom Scholz and analog tape as EE

[miroslav]

Tim....you're rambling now and starting to debating the debate...so I'm done.

You brought up Scholz, it's in the title of the thread, and you asked a lot of questions about what he was saying/meaning.
If you hadn't mentioned him...I certainly wouldn't have.

I'm not asking you to "humbly bow down"...I just don't agree with you and there's no "study" or "loop-back" test that's going to change my view.

If there's anyone else here who wants to respond to you...you can keep on posting.
I'm not going to try and "shut you down"......

PS
I was trying to have a conversation with Ethan the last couple of pages....not you...but you kept quoting me and mentioning me by name.
So you really wanted me to respond to you...but then you complain when I keep responding.


.

 

[Tim Gillett]

Tim....you're rambling now and starting to debating the debate...so I'm done.

So you're done. Can I have that in writing? But you put it in writing the last time and it meant nothing. So why should anyone believe you now?

Trust has to be earned.

Tim

 

[Lt. Bob]

Miro ...... arguers like to argue. They don't necessarily care about the sunject they're arguing about ...... they just like to argue.
With such folks it will never end and they will always find a way to make it your fault that it's continuing.

If you want to argue then they're great to interact with ....... if you tire of the argument then it's time to just quit because they never will and they'll also never acknowledge that anyone else knows anything at all.

Like I said, it's simply Victory Pete all over again.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I thought I said that I was not a designer of high-end analog audio.

Yes, you acknowledged your ignorance several times in this thread. So then the question becomes: How can you have such strong opinions, and insist I'm wrong, when by your own admission you don't understand the science? This is a serious question that I hope you'll answer. When a wise person realizes he doesn't understand something, he makes an effort to learn.

It would make much more sense for someone with that kind of skill and knowledge to argue the value of their gear.

I've had those discussions and they are never fruitful because they are defending their income source. They are not interested in fact, but rather perpetuating misinformation that helps them sell gear. This is why I'm banned from most sections at Gearslutz. Since many gear vendors are also advertisers, they complain to the site owner who depends on those ad dollars. They know they can't refute me on the facts and logic, so all that's left is censoring.

How about I turn it around for you....
Ethan...please prove where without a doubt that high-end analog audio gear is just a few resistors and diodes for the sake of a little distortion and frequency shift and anything more than that is pure hype-n-scam.

This is a common logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on the person making claims they cannot back up. I already explained that distortion is easily created using resistors and diodes, or a simple non-linear DSP algorithm. If you don't understand how that works, then again I suggest you learn. If you'd like me to show a simple schematic where you can dial in distortion, and you think you'd understand it, let me know and I'll do that and post it here.

that would be between you and Scholz...you putting up your proof and he putting up his.

The defining difference is I can back up my proof with fact, versus Scholz whose statements are clearly opinion (not proof) based on misinformation. For the 40th time, he claimed that digital audio adds phase shift that destroys quality, and this is easy to disprove. One proof is simply showing an A/D's spec for phase shift. Another is a listening test to see if phase shift is even audible (it's not). I've done that twice now - once in my AES Audio Myths video and again in my book The Audio Expert. That you refuse to read and listen and comprehend is not my fault. You can lead a musician to information, but you can't make him read.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

they will always find a way to make it your fault that it's continuing.

Yes Bob, it is your fault because you refuse to concede a single point even after being shown irrefutable proof. Let's go back and see some of the things I asked that you never were able to answer:

There is no evidence for ultrasonics having an affect on what we perceive. Whatever "evidence" has been put forth in the past has been thoroughly debunked since. But I'm glad to hear your evidence in case there's something new that I missed.

This too [two amplifiers which measure identical can sound very different] has been debunked repeatedly. But again, I'll be glad to entertain your evidence in case I missed something

Have you ever done a proper level-matched blind test of power amps? Do you understand the need for proper testing?

Since you have no answer for any of this, I have to wonder why you're so adamant in your position and how you have the nerve to blame me for being argumentative.

But wait, there's more. The links in this post refute your claims about jitter, and show that in proper controlled tests nobody could hear jitter in normal amounts:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...m-scholz-analog-tape-ee-348386/4/#post3944061

Yet you still argue that I'm wrong and accuse me of being close-minded:

At least partially because you're closed minded to anyone that doesn't agree with you. You're dismissive and contemptuous of other opinions and give no one credit for knowing anything unless it conforms with what you believe.

But your most outrageous comment has to be this insult:

I also find it funny that most of them don't have much in the way of music they've done to demonstrate their opinions are correct.

I can't speak for others who understand audio science, but my Cello Rondo music video has more than 1.5 million views on YouTube and elsewhere, with thousands of favorable comments. If this is how we judge someone's grasp of audio science, then surely I win. But this isn't how science and logic work. I see in your profile that you're almost as old as me. Are you really unable to understand basic logic and what constitutes proof? Are you so set in your beliefs that you're unwilling to learn anything? Are insults really all you have?

And on that note I'm done with this thread. I've proven every one of my points with facts that Miroslav and Bob have been unable to refute. If you guys want to believe in unicorns and magic faeries that make analog gear sound better than digital in ways that aren't understood, be my guest.

--Ethan

 

[Dogbreath]

I do believe there are a couple in this thread that need to get over themselves.

 

[Tim Gillett]

PS
I was trying to have a conversation with Ethan the last couple of pages....not you...but you kept quoting me and mentioning me by name.
So you really wanted me to respond to you...but then you complain when I keep responding.


.

Since your edited PS was added after my posted below it, the post order makes it seem that I had ignored it. In fact your post script hadnt been written until after my post. So here is my response now that you have written it.

Yes I have really wanted you to respond to many things in my posts, and in the posts of, in no particular order, Farview, Ethan Winer, Gekko, Grimtraveller, RayC, PR Hunt, Greg L and perhaps other I may have missed. In my view and I suspect that of others, you still havent responded adequately if at all.

On the other hand I fear what you might say when you do respond. There is no inconsistency in my position.

It may help for you to observe some good quality, respectful online or written forum debates - it matters not what the subject is - where people show respect and courtesy to opponents, and when they are shown to be in error, gladly acknowledge that and even thank their opponents for enlightening them, even apologizing where appropriate. Good role models in life are very important. Perhaps you have not had the benefit of that. If so, that is hardly your fault.

Thanks for all those who participated in this thread debate, especially the ones mentioned above. A special thanks to Ethan for his wide knowledge and understanding of audio and music, and his contribution here.

Miroslav, as a fellow guitarist and music lover, I enjoyed your two blues tracks on the Tube. Nice playing.

All the best

Tim

 

[8MilesHi]

Analog Thoughts, TS, etc.

Hi -

I don't have too much to add, but maybe some would concur with my experience. I, for sure, wouldn't chance to argue with Scholz. For myself, I've been playing in band since the late 70's and like many an amateur/semi-pro did dabble in original music and spent time in quite a number of studios all through the 80's and 90's to the present. As for 'sound' itself, based on my age, listening heritage, etc., the "16-track 2-inch" format, to me, is the most 'overhead' I ever heard in live analog recording - and I must add, my experience is with Blues, Rock'N'Roll, Vocal Pop and Power Pop - and it continues to be my favorite recording format when I can find it (although 16/2 Ampex machines are getting hard to repair anymore with original used parts from the retired ones dwindling yearly). This is just my humble opinion, and the way my ears hear stuff, yada, yada...

But I'm not stuck in time warp - when I listen with headphones to music that artists such as Imogen Heap produce - I am utterly stunned at the dynamic range and production of some of this music (and a lot of this is done entirely in the digital domain!). There are artists who I think are taking real advantage of digital domain, to their credit. I think Scholz (and mine to, to some extent) main complaints are about the legacy of analog music when trying to 'squeeze' itself into digital formats. Certainly some recall those first years of terribly converted CDs back in the early 80's. Perhaps Scholz is harboring some bad feelings about that era. Funny, I always thought Boston's music would have been ripe for A/D conversion as Tom seemed to have a '(very?) heavy compressor hand' on those first two albums - lol !

Back to analog, I've always liked the philosophy of the fellow at Maple Shade records in Marlboro, MD. I think he and Tom would talk for hours on end - lol ! Google Mapleshade (I've not posted enough to do links yet)
Two musically inclined engineers talking analog audio - sure we'd all love to hear that convo!
Peace - 8MH

 

[GONZO-X]

the remastered 1st album sounds great.

 

[sparky123]

i agree.. i dare anyone to find better drum sounds than analog tape recording. that's merely the beginning. i could go on and on , but , come on MAN ! NO CONTEST between analog vs digital...

 

[GONZO-X]

no, what i'm saying is the new re-mastered 1st album, now sounds better than the vinyl or cassette ever did.

as per mr. S, it even rivals the master tapes.
technology marches on.