Thick vs Thin . . . a few questions . . .

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mykie_a

New member
Something can sound louder but still thin. Fuller but not brick wall'd.

Is this something done at the mastering level or is depth applied at the mixing level with plugs and overdubs? Is it an eq boost or subtraction?

I don't care about loudness, I don't mind if my product is 3 dbs lower than the competition. . . my listener can just turn the dial up. I just want it to sound thick and have depth.

www.myspace.com/sideaffectsmusic
 
mykie_a said:
Something can sound louder but still thin. Fuller but not brick wall'd.

Is this something done at the mastering level or is depth applied at the mixing level with plugs and overdubs? Is it an eq boost or subtraction?

I don't care about loudness, I don't mind if my product is 3 dbs lower than the competition. . . my listener can just turn the dial up. I just want it to sound thick and have depth.

www.myspace.com/sideaffectsmusic.com
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Full sound begins at the source. Your source is either full or it isn't. Then comes the arrangement, it is either full or it is not. Then comes mixing. Mastering... GIGO.

Also, it's about contrast (this is where arrangement comes in)... too many full sounding elements will actually make things sound indistinct and messy, so you want to juxtapose full sounds with lighter/thinner sounds, you want to contrast full sections with sparse sections.

Easier said than done though. :o
 
Waltz Mastering said:
Jinx - you owe me a beer.
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You got it :D

134332.jpg


Now if I can only listen to my own advice... :o
 
mykie_a said:
Is this something done at the mastering level or is depth applied at the mixing level with plugs and overdubs?
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It is done at the recording level. A "pro" recording doesn't change all that much from the time before mixing to the time after mastering (unless dumb decisions are made for the sake of loudness or trends. Then it sounds worse).
 
noisewreck said:
Full sound begins at the source. Your source is either full or it isn't. Then comes the arrangement, it is either full or it is not. Then comes mixing. Mastering... GIGO.

Also, it's about contrast (this is where arrangement comes in)... too many full sounding elements will actually make things sound indistinct and messy, so you want to juxtapose full sounds with lighter/thinner sounds, you want to contrast full sections with sparse sections.

Easier said than done though. :o
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I agree with noisewreck on this however, I think the sequence is different: Everything starts with the arrangement. If you have a poorly crafted arrangment (no matter what tricks you try to pull off in tracking/production) the end result will be compromised.
 
Simman said:
I agree with noisewreck on this however, I think the sequence is different: Everything starts with the arrangement. If you have a poorly crafted arrangment (no matter what tricks you try to pull off in tracking/production) the end result will be compromised.
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True for traditional recording scenario. With my mess, things are somewhat different :D
 
Thanks guys, it sounds like having a high quality signal chain (front to back) and having a good song arrangement are both critical.

But if you have good quality equipment, the correct mic for the job (SM 57, E604's,CS 1 , D112 etc) a decent preamp (dm-24) and a decent soundcard (2408 mkII) all you'd have to do then is have a good room and a decent mic placement. Well, ok , a good song too.

I think I've achieved all the above, but still am missing that depth and in your face sound.

Perhaps I'm just too conditioned to better = louder. Maybe I just need that mastering touch.

I used to think that if someone has a good ear and can learn compression and EQ then one can get a good recording but man there is so much more!
 
When you say "thin"...are you referring to some of the songs posted on your MySpace web page?

I listened to a couple, and I have to say, they do have a thin, no low end quality to them.
Everything sounds like it's had the low end rolled off from to high up and at a steep rate.

It could be the mics and positioning that caused that...or the room...or how you mixed it...???
 
I have been debating this lately. I am a total amateur at recording. I was listening to A Perfect Circle's album, the new Five for Fighting album, and the Kings of Leon's new album and I realized that it seems that my recordings sound too thick! My drums sound too full and I think I have to EQ less. More importantly, like everyone above is saying above. I feel like I am trying to make something bad sound good when it should be sounding good to start with.
 
Thanks for all the useful info fellas! I do tend to cut my lows (except bass and kick) and will try differently for my next mix.

If I send off a a 'thin' stereo mix to a ME can I expect for it to come back thicker?
 
mykie_a said:
Thanks for all the useful info fellas! I do tend to cut my lows (except bass and kick) and will try differently for my next mix.

If I send off a a 'thin' stereo mix to a ME can I expect for it to come back thicker?
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Mastering should not be used to fix problems that should've been taken care of at the mixing stage, and even further down the recording process. Once you send you mix to the ME, if it has issues, they will do their best to improve, but at that point it becomes a "less of the two evils" process, in other words, it will always be a compromise as when you try to improve something in the mix, invariably you'll be affecting something else that was fine to begin with. So, don't wait until the mastering stage to thicken things up.

Cutting lows. While you'll read a lot about cutting lows from instruments (other than kick and bass) so that you don't end up with a muddy mix, this is not a hard and fast rule. Also, taming the lows doesn't necessarily mean slapping on a low cut filter and take ALL the lows out. You might end up with more musical results, and thicker sounds, if you use shelving filter and lower the lows some, instead of completely removing them. For example, snares have a lot of that visceral energy in the 100-150Hz region. If you slap on a low cut filter and remove everything below 200Hz, while you might end up with a nice snappy snare, you'll lose it's meat. This might or might not be a good thing, and you'll have to let the mix decide whether this is something you want to do.

Don't blindly follow things you read on the internet and magazines, take them as general guidlines, however, always keep your mind and ears open to other possibilities, even if they are "wrong".
 
Ctrl_Alt_Dlt said:
I was listening to A Perfect Circle's album, the new Five for Fighting album, and the Kings of Leon's new album and I realized that it seems that my recordings sound too thick!
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No offense intended here, just to be honest; if one needs to compare their mix to someone else's mix to figure out if their own mix is thick or thin, they are going to have problems no matter what.

Also, without those ears and without knowing a) exactly what ingredients went into those albums, and 2) the intentions of the producers of those albums, the it's difficult to justify using those (or any other) albums as standard by which to judge "proper" thickness.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
No offense intended here, just to be honest; if one needs to compare their mix to someone else's mix to figure out if their own mix is thick or thin, they are going to have problems no matter what.

Also, without those ears and without knowing a) exactly what ingredients went into those albums, and 2) the intentions of the producers of those albums, the it's difficult to justify using those (or any other) albums as standard by which to judge "proper" thickness.

G.
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Do you mean to say not injecting other material into the final mix process as an ear 'tuning/calibration reference method?
With enough experience this might not be the case, I suppose the need diminishes..
 
mixsit said:
Do you mean to say not injecting other material into the final mix process as an ear 'tuning/calibration reference method?
With enough experience this might not be the case, I suppose the need diminishes..
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I know that's a popular position, but I honestly just don't understand it. That's something I honestly never did myself, even back when I was just starting, and frankly, never saw or heard of anyone doing until I came to this board a couple of years ago.

It seems to my way of thinking, that one can either tell if something sounds "thick" or "thin" by listening to it, and if they can't, they are going to be in trouble no matter what they do. It's not a matter so much of calibration or training, IMHO, it's simply a matter of what their senses tell them.

Does one have to taste someone else's food to tell if their own food is too sweet or too salty? Does one have to touch some other wonan's skin to tell if their girlfriend's skin is smooth or rough?* Does one need to look at someone else's photographs to tell if the green grass in their own picture is color balanced correctly?

And then you have the additional factor that if the commercial production you're listening to has been played with different instruments and arrangements, and mixed and mastered to a different purposeful effect as directed by the album producer, you're just comparing apples to oranges. One person's thin is another person's artistic choice. Another person's thick is a third person's over produced.

I just don't get the point. Honestly.

*Not to mention that'll get you into major trouble about nine other ways ;)


G.
 
Ctrl_Alt_Dlt said:
I have been debating this lately. I am a total amateur at recording. I was listening to A Perfect Circle's album, the new Five for Fighting album, and the Kings of Leon's new album and I realized that it seems that my recordings sound too thick! My drums sound too full and I think I have to EQ less. More importantly, like everyone above is saying above. I feel like I am trying to make something bad sound good when it should be sounding good to start with.
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Would you have felt your recordings were too thick if you hadn't listened to those three albums that you mentioned ?
 
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