The very basics

[ecc83]

After giving what I hope is some helpful advice to a few people on forums a light has just gone on in my head!

That is that very few people today listen to music properly reproduced and by that I mean a modest audio system with two speakers correctly setup to give a good stereo picture.

I have lived with such a system for the better part of 50 years and whilst I have not gone to nearly as many live, acoustic music recitals as I would have liked, I have been to some. Thus I have some idea of how instruments should be disposed across the stereo stage.

I do understand that this does not apply to a pub pop/rock band but I now realize why people are at a loss to understand their poor results? They have no concept of creating a believable sound image.

Comments please.

Dave.

 

[Mickster]

Hi Dave........I think you're raising two different issues. First....the issue surrounding how more and more people listen to any recorded music.........and secondly.......whether people even or ever had any idea of how music should "sound" based on how it is performed live......at the original source.

As for how more and more people listen....headphones....ear buds......phone speakers.......cheap systems....etc...etc.....I think the days of "stereo systems" of any real accuracy are going out the window fast. We've covered that here a number of times but that topic is still evolving. Not that....even in the past.....most people listed on good systems anyway. Lots of people never got to any decent level of equipment for playback. I have noticed....however.....that some of my young friends are starting to purchase "better" add-on sound systems for their TV sets.........for use when listening to YouTube and amazon music...etc. Maybe that trend will begin to bring back some sort of renewed and improved audio results and experience.

As for people having some sort of basic understanding of what music should sound like based on live listening.......well......that too was never a widely common set of knowledge / experience either.

As a musician I've always understood that the vast majority of listeners to recorded music will never ever get to a place where they understand what our expectations for the "sound" would be. Just think of how many times you tried to explain or detail what you hear on a recording......as opposed to what they hear. You get that deer in the headlights look right?

Mick

 

[TalismanRich]

It seems that many of us "old folk" came through the HiFi glory days of the 60s to the 80s. Those were the days when having a REAL stereo system was a goal of most as we moved from schoolboys to having a real job, and with that, some disposable income. My first system was a Sony integrated amp with a pair of Marantz 5G speakers and a Sony turntable. By 1980, I had a system with a nice Rega 2, Bryston amp, GAS preamp and IMF TLS 50s. I still have them all, except for the GAS which suffered a failure. Most of my listening these days is either on the bedroom system with Vandersteens and an Onkyo receiver, or from my computer with little JBLs 305s while i browse the web.

In the past few years, I've tossed out stacks of old Audio, HiFi News, and Stereo Review magazines. Everyone I knew would spend their lunch hours and evenings reading about the latest new trends in HiFi. Getting a realistic sounding system was the ultimate goal. For that you needed a decent reference, which was often often acoustic music of some sort. There are few magazines left these days, and there are not a lot of audio specific resources on the web.

Now, everything is oriented to video, 7.1 with subs for the big bottom end. If you can't afford that, a soundbar is the best you can expect followed by a portable bluetooth speaker or ear buds. I know many people for whom the TV soundbar is the highest end system in their home.

Of course, the same was said about us in our youth.... that rock and roll will never last! It will never replace a good big band with a REAL singer like Sinatra, Ella, Peggy Lee or Billy Holiday.

 

[Mickster]

Yeah......my first "stereo" system was a "suitcase" type of system. Remember those? The speakers on each side swung out and the turn table in the middle swung down. Just basic "tone" controls and lousy speakers with terrible range and accuracy. I listened to countless albums on that thing. It was much later when I bought a real stereo system with any decent sound.......an analog Pioneer with 6.5 inch Technics speakers. I got a Nikko receiver after that and the sound took a nice jump up. Over time.......and many purchases....I've ended up with a Denon receiver with Tannoy speakers as my main stereo system for the house.......and I use my JBL 305's as part of my playback system for my DAW.....which I use for regular listening as well. My young nephew always gets blown away by the sound of my systems. He's uses ear buds and terrible headphones for most of his playback.

 

[ecc83]

"Of course, the same was said about us in our youth.... that rock and roll will never last! It will never replace a good big band with a REAL singer like Sinatra, Ella, Peggy Lee or Billy Holiday.

But last they have! I love rock but I am equally enamored of big bands and jazz (never cared for Sinatra muc, took too bloody long to finish a song!) Classical of course but I would be hard put to place Bach against Ludwig (BBC R3 are running his life story in composer of the week alternate weeks this year. Trying to record them all for son) ...Never happier though than playing bass while son went through the Quo songbook on guitar!

Back to 'Stereo' Music always existed in a space and could be placed. The positions of the instruments of the orchestra evolved over time and expanded as the music developed in complexity. Recording engineers always knew something was lacking in mono and two channel stereo was embraced almost as soon as it was developed (same is true of digital recording for classical music anyway). We do not need 5.1 or 7.1 to appreciate Beethoven of Beatles. This is obvious from the total anarchy that reigned with "Quadraphonics" which was just about money and getting a system in place ahead of your rivals. In the end everybody lost. I do not mourn its passing.

To me, the people who have no concept of a musical landscape are the poorer for it.

Dave.

 

[rob aylestone]

For some things, it's realism for others it's follow the formula. I was a teenager when I went with my dad to a recording session in Manchester (the old Strawberry Studios) where they were recording The Syd Lawrence Orchestra doing Glenn Miller album, and the band were spaced as much as they could (which now of course I know why) and the result was like the old Beatles stereo records - weird. The Miller 'do-whap, do-whap' sound with the woods playing against the brass was panned hard left/right, and as Dad put one of the new stereo speakers in the kitchen and the other in the lounge the result was very weird - the 'do' in one room, with a ghostly 'chap', and vice versa in the other room.

My pet hate are instruments that are the full width between your speakers. Piano the worst. The lowest not left speaker, the highest, right speaker and the pianist has ten feet wide arms. Hate it! I don't get it, because live sound nowadays is pretty much mono. It just doesn't work trying too recreate position on stage in the PA, so most people mix it with only a very gentle left right pan adjustment - never more than a tiny bit of pan.

 

[TalismanRich]

My pet hate are instruments that are the full width between your speakers. Piano the worst. The lowest not left speaker, the highest, right speaker and the pianist has ten feet wide arms. Hate it! I don't get it, because live sound nowadays is pretty much mono. It just doesn't work trying too recreate position on stage in the PA, so most people mix it with only a very gentle left right pan adjustment - never more than a tiny bit of pan.

If you're coming from the perspective of the person sitting at the keys, then it's probably more realistic as you would normally have about 4ft from lowest to highest key. Likewise if you're a drummer, you hear the hihat dead left and the ride cymbal on the right. Imagine the perspective of the conductor! Anyone who has been on stage probably has a warped sense of placement compared to someone who's always in the audience.

Its funny that you mention your dad's setup. We had an old Philco stereo. The main unit housed the turntable and tuner wth the amp and speaker. To get stereo you had to plug in a powered speaker on the back and flipped a switch. In the old house, the stereo was in the living room with speaker on both sides of the couch. When we moved to our new house in '64, the main unit ended up in the entry way, and the speaker in the living room. You only got "stereo" if you stood in the doorway between the two!

 

[ecc83]

If you're coming from the perspective of the person sitting at the keys, then it's probably more realistic as you would normally have about 4ft from lowest to highest key. Likewise if you're a drummer, you hear the hihat dead left and the ride cymbal on the right. Imagine the perspective of the conductor! Anyone who has been on stage probably has a warped sense of placement compared to someone who's always in the audience.

Its funny that you mention your dad's setup. We had an old Philco stereo. The main unit housed the turntable and tuner wth the amp and speaker. To get stereo you had to plug in a powered speaker on the back and flipped a switch. In the old house, the stereo was in the living room with speaker on both sides of the couch. When we moved to our new house in '64, the main unit ended up in the entry way, and the speaker in the living room. You only got "stereo" if you stood in the doorway between the two!

Yes, good points Rich and I have seen it argued that one should put a mic |(or array) over the shoulder of a guitar player to capture what he/she is hearing! That. as far as I am concerned it total bollocks!

Recording a musical performance is surely all about PRESENTATION! We do it for the LISTENER not the performer. That means presenting the artists as they would be heard in a hall. Even your local pub band have a 'setup' they might be totally clueless but I think it behoves the recordists to deliver at least SOME impression of how they were disported about the stage? (of course, lead git' and/or drummer will be too loud and vocals, usually a distorted mess, will come from a PA totally unrelated from the singers position. But you gotta try!)

There is of course totally electronic music divorced from any reality of space and can exist in and move around 360dgrs but such compositions are, I would aver, beyond the capabilities of you average HR bod and most things are small scale and can be sensibly 'panned'?

Dave.

 

[gecko zzed]

I contend there are two broad approaches to recording; 'photographing' and 'painting'. These are extremes, and there are many variations between.

In 'photographing', the aim is to reproduce as faithfully and as accurately as possible, a performance of an artist. It's a documentary form of recording, and resonates with Dave's idea of a virtual stage between two speakers, with the listener being able to hear pretty much were each band member is.

In 'painting', the aim is not to create an accurate 'photograph' of a performance, but instead to treat a song as a canvas on which you paint sounds. There is no requirement for the end result to bear any relation to reality (though it may). Brian May from Queen was keen on this idea, and in A Night at the Opera, you can hear a mixture of both approaches.

 

[ecc83]

I contend there are two broad approaches to recording; 'photographing' and 'painting'. These are extremes, and there are many variations between.

In 'photographing', the aim is to reproduce as faithfully and as accurately as possible, a performance of an artist. It's a documentary form of recording, and resonates with Dave's idea of a virtual stage between two speakers, with the listener being able to hear pretty much were each band member is.

In 'painting', the aim is not to create an accurate 'photograph' of a performance, but instead to treat a song as a canvas on which you paint sounds. There is no requirement for the end result to bear any relation to reality (though it may). Brian May from Queen was keen on this idea, and in A Night at the Opera, you can hear a mixture of both approaches.

Yes to all that but I would suggest that the 'noobiest newb' when trying to record, voice, instrument, di-da, does not even consider the matter of the resulting point in space of the result?

The tyro will likely do it all on headphones and thus, so long as 'something' comes back between the ears, it often is accepted. For a single instrument or voice this is probably fine, especially if it is just for the person's own use, maybe improvement? But even Voice Overs to my mind deserve to be set in some sort of acoustic? The most horrible to listen to is the 'One lug' result? Rooms are almost inevitably small and horrid acoustically so about all one can do is absorb the ***t out of them. Then pan the voice centrally and add a whiff of 'verb?

Once you get to two or more sources it gets trickier. There is always the odd post per month about 'EQ' and, other that gross correction, that AFAIK is much about giving instruments and voices 'space' in the frequency domain? AS important to me is giving them space in the SPACE domain. Plus, make them of 'natural' size.

Of course, as said there is music that exists in its own 'phantom' space and that is just as artistically valid.PROVIDED that is what the musician(s) intended!

(I am presently listening to some g'awful song with piano. NO idea WTF it is and could care less but at least he is a mtr or so behind my fireplace and in the middle! )

Dave.

 

[gecko zzed]

Sure. Whether photo or painting (either visually or acoustically), composition is important, and novices to either need to learn about perspective, colour and composition. The analogy works for both art forms.

 

[grimtraveller]

I have seen it argued that one should put a mic (or array) over the shoulder of a guitar player to capture what he/she is hearing! That as far as I am concerned it total bollocks!

I've used that method to record the acoustic guitar a number of times and it's no worse or better than any other. It's just another way. The acoustic guitar still sounds like an acoustic guitar.

I contend there are two broad approaches to recording; 'photographing' and 'painting'. These are extremes, and there are many variations between.

I'm in total agreement with that. There are so many variations in between and if one listens to a wide variety of music from across the last 5 or 6 decades one will find lots of recordings {be it singular songs or whole albums to match to both the extremes and the variations.
When people talk of using the classical orchestra recording as some kind of universal standard of what any reproduction should sound like, I sometimes wonder if they'd feel the same if they happened to be standing way over to the left or to the right of said orchestra !

 

[ecc83]

I've used that method to record the acoustic guitar a number of times and it's no worse or better than any other. It's just another way. The acoustic guitar still sounds like an acoustic guitar.


I'm in total agreement with that. There are so many variations in between and if one listens to a wide variety of music from across the last 5 or 6 decades one will find lots of recordings {be it singular songs or whole albums to match to both the extremes and the variations.
When people talk of using the classical orchestra recording as some kind of universal standard of what any reproduction should sound like, I sometimes wonder if they'd feel the same if they happened to be standing way over to the left or to the right of said orchestra !

Yes, well I grew up listening to the BBC "Music from the Grand Hotel" when I was a kid then graduated to a stereo system (Home built speakers, anyone remember 'Peerless' kits? Still going sellin drive units) and listening to the Proms. I read Hi Fi news and Studio Sound and lusted. Lot of articles about mic technique and the advice was always "stick your stereo pair in the best seat in the house".

Yes, of course, people can please themselves but as the old jazz guy said "You gotta KNOW the rules before you can break 'em!"

Dave.

 

[grimtraveller]

I read Hi Fi news and Studio Sound and lusted. Lot of articles about mic technique and the advice was always "stick your stereo pair in the best seat in the house".

Sometimes, easier said than done !
My Dad was a classical buff and used to play his music when we'd gone to bed. I grew up listening to
that music through the floor, in the car from a radio, on high end stuff and low end single speaker crap. Maybe that's why I'm not an audiophile. I just love the music.

Yes, of course, people can please themselves but as the old jazz guy said "You gotta KNOW the rules before you can break 'em!"

I feel ambivalent about that. For the most part it's true and it's certainly logical. Yet at the same time, some of the greatest music has happened when people didn't know the rules but broke them anyway.

 

[ecc83]

"the greatest music has happened when people didn't know the rules but broke them anyway."

Not from a noob on HR it didn't!

Example?

Dave.

 

[rob aylestone]

Worst requests for recording are for trumpet and trombone players. They have never ever heard what they really sound like. Unamplified musicians are also unaware what they sound like playing with others. Their perfect balance always has their instrument way to high in the mix as they always hear it.

 

[Mickster]

Oh yes.......that's so true. Whether you're recording or playing live.......less experienced players almost always want their instrument a little too loud in the mix. It's also true for vocals as well many times. I never viewed it as rob put it though......because they're used to their volume from their playing perspective. That makes so much sense.

 

[Gtoboy]

The advent of MP3 and high density micro disk allowing me too do my daily lunch walk with earbuds has given me a completely different perspective on mixing. Listening to things from the sixties, seventies all the way to the noughties has given me constant surprises in how depth, width height, placement is less a fixed mark than I was led to believe when I started and even what I see modern mix videos and blogs purport as the correct, or maybe just desired "stereo image".

I am not just talking about recordings that had a stereo mix as an after thought (tho' I certainly find those instructive also),but many varied genres and artists.

I am also a middle age boog who still listens in stereo, tho my studio does have a sub, but i also check my mixes through earbuds, headphones and Klipsch Fortes driven by a QSC power amp. So it is probably a bit odd but IMHO, just referencing various mixes in as many ways as possible can help your mixing chops more than just having a good "stereo system" would ever do.

Case for my defense, take your top twenty fave tunes(no classical, or as Gecko calls them, Photographic type tunes please), and listen to them on only one side at time. I'm sure most of you have done this probably on speakers, but now try it with earbuds or headphones too. I would venture to say that as few as half, and as many all of them, ignore the commonly held mixing rules in one way or another. "Paintings" as Gecko calls them.

Now, i do agree that the generation that doesn't listen on a decent stereo may be missing a piece of the technique puzzle,but i would be less inclined to agree that it's a major barrier to making good mixing decisions as a rule.

 

[ecc83]

Yes GT it is the bloody Wild West out there and as I have said, peeps can do as they please. I just mean that the ABSOLUTE newb would do well to listen to some 'natural' sound landscapes of small forces to get an idea of how instruments are positioned.

To me this is as basic as them getting levels sorted. Most people, upon getting a mic and an AI just bang out a recording. That is fine, have a bloody go! But also LISTEN! Especially to some well presented stuff. And, any chance you get, go listen to live music...ANY live music!

Dave.

 

[CSP]

Very interesting topic and mic placement and "stereo spread" is something that I have always been very concerned about when recording.

Also interesting to listen to others about the changes in listening habits, quality and systems. I remember as a youngish teenager (I was always interested in electronics) building my first amplifier (needed two fork lift trucks to carry it !!!!) and large (2.5 x 5 x 2ft) loudspeaker box (no stereo in that era) and setting it up in the lounge room and my mother saying to a friend that she used to wake up at night dreaming that she was being strangled by all of the wires associated with my system. BUT then came stereo !!!!!!!

First stereo system consisted of my own designed 200w per side valve amp (no semiconductors then !!!) fed by my own designed pre-amp with the speakers being custom built Goodman Sherwood cabinets (but fitted with much higher powered speakers) with the turntable being a broadcast studio quality Garrard direct drive (very rare) and possibly the best cartridge ever built (in my opinion anyway) a Decca FFSS magnetic cartridge. Now my mother really had problems !!!!!

In relation to instrument placing in a mix (and I will only relate this to classical orchestras and conductor driven big bands, etc).

Dave hit the nail on the head when he said the advice was always "stick your stereo pair in the best seat in the house". AND the only person who really ever hears what the orchestra should really sound like is the conductor.

Something that I guess very few of the forum members have ever heard (or possibly ever heard of) is "Dummy Head" recording. This was a process that was initially invented (I think) by Sennheiser in the early to mid 1970's (you should do a search for information on the process) and consisted of an acoustically designed head with two exceptional quality microphones inserted into the ears. The idea being that it heard sound EXACTLY as a human would hear it -- not mono, not stereo, not surround, all of which are basically on a horizontal plain, BUT rather full 360 deg immersive stereoscopic.

For best results (because the conductor was the only person to hear the orchestra as he/she wanted it to sound) the dummy head was placed on the conductor's rostrum/lecturn and as close as possible to the conductor and at the conductor's ear height. This was then recorded without any modification straight to a stereo recorder.

For best listening results the recording was played back through the best possible quality "fully open eared" headphones --- loud speakers only gave you a horizontal reproduction where as the open eared headphones gave the full immersive effect. The positioning of instruments was amazing.

I remember one day at the Sydney Opera House when I was considering purchasing a system for us to use, placing the head on the very edge of the Opera Theatre stage with its face pointing towards the audience area and then sitting in the sound control room with a couple of other of my sound staff with us wearing the headphones (Sennheiser from memory), while another member was walking around in the actual theatre and talking. We could tell exactly where he was in the theatre (eg on stage, where on stage, in the stalls and where, in the dress circle and where, etc). It really was as if we were sitting on the front of the stage and listening.

If you ever get the opportunity to hear an actual dummy head recording (not streamed as the effect is not there for some reason) and can listen to it through the required headphones (definitely not ear buds) you will be amazed at what you hear and where you actually hear the sounds coming from. I was lucky to have been able to purchase a few German recorded Dummy Head LPs at the time and still have them in pristine condition --- bring them out occasionally to play for some of my producer type friends and they can't believe what they are hearing and where the various instruments and vocalists are positioned (one recording the vocalist is sitting on top of a ladder). Thankfully the cover notes gave full descriptions of the various instruments and any vocalists positioning in the studio/auditorium along with the size of the various rooms.

In the meantime, it is back to multi miking and mixing down to stereo using my digital desk !!!!!!!

David