The overall key to engineering?

[giraffe]

seriously.

hold your breath, i'm not kidding..... here it is.









































know what you want the end result to sound like.
not kinda, but really truly know what you want, and you can get it.
it's harder than it sounds.




ta-da.

 

[NTK88]

Understanding Gain Structure/ Gain Staging.
That is what I think holds most noobs and even intermediate recorders back. I know once I finally understood it, all of my stuff took a giant leap.

Start here and when you understand it, check out some of the other links on the top of the page. If you take the time to understand it, you will see results....

http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles8.htm

Thanks for the link.
I read one of the articles at the bottom. Let me see if I atleast sort of understand this now. Here is part of an AIM convo I just had with my bassist.


"mixers and recorders naturally make noise due to the electronics, and the "signal to noise ratio" listed on product manuals tells how loud the noise is." Basically he went on to say that recording up to 0VU means that on his machine he is 69db louder than the machines noise, and that the red light is the maxium level before clipping. We only go 1/2 way and even less than 1/2 way on the mixer and then boost the volume after which in effect is boosting the noise left by the machines and taking away from the audio wuality

so we might only be 20 db louder than the machines noise. for reference, normal talking is about 60db so only a 20db difference isnt that much

 

[XLR]

The overall key to engineering?

Dunno.

But...

Practical things to make sure you've got as a starting point...
1. good monitoring so you're not flying blind
2. tracks that are in tune and rhythmically tight

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

mixers and recorders naturally make noise due to the electronics, and the "signal to noise ratio" listed on product manuals tells how loud the noise is." Basically he went on to say that recording up to 0VU means that on his machine he is 69db louder than the machines noise, and that the red light is the maxium level before clipping. We only go 1/2 way and even less than 1/2 way on the mixer and then boost the volume after which in effect is boosting the noise left by the machines and taking away from the audio wuality

so we might only be 20 db louder than the machines noise. for reference, normal talking is about 60db so only a 20db difference isnt that much

You're off to a good start, NTK, that is a key issue with gain structure. There is a bit more to it than just that, however.

For example, what you and your bassist describe is usually (with some rare caveats) true in analog, but is not necessarily true in the digital part of the equation. Which also leads into understanding the difference between 0dB on an analog VU meter and 0dB on a digital FS meter (not the same thing at all). And how those relate to the line level signals which the equipment is designed for (measured in entirely different dB scales themselves), how it all ties tgether in the not-necessarily-standard calibration of your analog-digital converters, etc.

And that's just the measurement side of it, which can be confusing enough to the beginner. Then there's the actual hardware side; getting to know your gear, where the S/N bottlenecks may be, which ones might prefer to be pushed a bit harder and which ones need to be governered a bit more, etc.

It's really not hard to learn and understand all that stuff, just that most beginners don't realize that it's there to be learned and understood. They think it's just plug the stuff in, set the recording device to peak at or just under 0VU, and you're good to go. There's just a little more to it than just that.

P.S. For the not-so anonymous person who left me the sarcastic rep note: You're too late. It's no secret that I've already been working on it for a couple of months now.

G.

 

[NTK88]

So basically when I set up to record, I should read the manuals that came with my differnt mics, SM57, Beta 52, what ever additional mics I will purchase for overheads / hihat and our Oktava mk202 or w.e we have, read up on which ever IO I buy and then try to find info on the mac book pro and then I should be able to calculate how much gain should be at each point of connection and produce in theory if done correctly the best possible sound?

Looks like I have some reading to do, but if this is true then it is well worth it.

Question: When plugging into the IO, micing the snare with a 57 and some other differnt mic may call for different gain levels into the IO to produce the optimal sound depending on which mic is used?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

So basically when I set up to record, I should read the manuals that came with my differnt mics, SM57, Beta 52, what ever additional mics I will purchase for overheads / hihat and our Oktava mk202 or w.e we have, read up on which ever IO I buy and then try to find info on the mac book pro and then I should be able to calculate how much gain should be at each point of connection and produce in theory if done correctly the best possible sound?

Your metering and your ears will help you along the way probably more than anything else will, but yeah, reading up what you can - there's some good stuff on that projectstudiohandbook link that Amra recommended, plus about two-three pages of that book I mentioned earlier - and internalize the idea, and you'll be cooking with gas in no time.

Question: When plugging into the IO, micing the snare with a 57 and some other differnt mic may call for different gain levels into the IO to produce the optimal sound depending on which mic is used?

Yep. Some mics may work best at the same settings, but there's no guarantee one way or another. Every mic has different sensitivity levels, different polar patterns, and differnt output impedances. You definitely want to start your recording chain off with a good solid, good S/N signal through your preamp.

G.

 

[NTK88]

Cool thanks.
I will make the suggested changes and read up.

At rehersal tonight ill record a demo of us playing live with the changes and see how it works out. Ill post before and after too on sound click

 

[chessrock]

Whatever the hell it is that Southside Glenn is saying ... it is most likely clouding the situation. I'll play the odds on that one any day of the week.

Seriously ... if you're actually listening to what this blithering idiot is saying (whatever the hell it is -- I've long since put that ass on ignore), then chances are you're putting yourself in for a lot more work than you bargained for, initially, and to very little end.

There's no school better than that of "hard knocks." You need to put in the time and effort to experiment with different things ... learn and understand gain structure. Experiment with different mics and mic positioning to learn what works and what doesn't. Improve your accoustic situation ... both from a tracking and a mixdown standpoint. Otherwise, you'll be like a blind person trying to paint ... without the proper perspective, no one is going to understand or appreciate what you're trying to get accross -- because yours isn't a "real world" perspective (read: "doesn't translate"), if you catch my drift.

.

 

[NTK88]

Whatever the hell it is that Southside Glenn is saying ... it is most likely clouding the situation. I'll play the odds on that one any day of the week.

Seriously ... if you're actually listening to what this blithering idiot is saying (whatever the hell it is -- I've long since put that ass on ignore), then chances are you're putting yourself in for a lot more work than you bargained for, initially, and to very little end.

There's no school better than that of "hard knocks." You need to put in the time and effort to experiment with different things ... learn and understand gain structure. Experiment with different mics and mic positioning to learn what works and what doesn't. Improve your accoustic situation ... both from a tracking and a mixdown standpoint. Otherwise, you'll be like a blind person trying to paint ... without the proper perspective, no one is going to understand or appreciate what you're trying to get accross -- because yours isn't a "real world" perspective (read: "doesn't translate"), if you catch my drift.

.

So what you are saying is that going into a trial and error session, and totally ignoring all scientific aspects is the best way to go, while taking into consideration science would make the process go 10xs faster? Im not going to blindly do a math equation, set the knobs accordinly and call it gold. The ears have the final say of course. There is no denying though that the way I had been tracking was far less than ideal.

People dont go to school for this stuff for nothing.

 

[raven46]

You need to put in the time and effort to experiment with different things ... learn and understand gain structure. Experiment with different mics and mic positioning

if you did'nt have SG on ignore you would know he was saying pretty much the same thing only better

my 5yr old nephew is more mature than you

 

[chessrock]

So what you are saying is that going into a trial and error session, and totally ignoring all scientific aspects is the best way to go, while taking into consideration science would make the process go 10xs faster? Im not going to blindly do a math equation, set the knobs accordinly and call it gold. The ears have the final say of course. There is no denying though that the way I had been tracking was far less than ideal.

People dont go to school for this stuff for nothing.

And most people who "go to school" for this stuff come out to a cold, harsh reality that they are not prepared and can't find a job to save their life or their electric bill. I'm not sayin ... I'm just sayin'.

Regardless of whatever math equations or whatever left brained stuff might be floating around in your head ... recording is ultimately a right-brained activity that excites the right-half of the brain much moreso than the left.

Not to mention the fact that ... your recording situation is going to be far different than any other. To the point that for me or anyone else on the net to try and relate to it in any meaningful fashion ... would result in nothing more than complete rubbish.

There is no substitute for hard work. Getting your hands dirty ... and obsessing over this stuff until your brain simply can't take any more. And then going out and doing it again until you finally wrap your head around it in a meaningful way. This isn't some panzy profession like accounting or computer programming (cough cough) where you go to school ... learn the codes and then apply them. This recording stuff is a really seriously fucked up discipline that -- just when you think you've got it cracked -- will render you a complete moron in no time flat.

While I certainly appreciate the pure encycolpedic knowlege of guys like Southside -- sometimes it makes my head spin, admittedly -- it just doesn't apply to the real world in a meaningul way. None of it, basically. And worse yet, it tends to mislead people in to the false belief that it can be broken down in to a scholarly discipline. Which, sadly to say, is so far from the case that it can drive one batty. Stick to accounting ... perhaps biology ... if that's the way your brain works. Audio is another animal.
.

 

[NTK88]

And most people who "go to school" for this stuff come out to a cold, harsh reality that they are not prepared and can't find a job to save their life or their electric bill. I'm not sayin ... I'm just sayin'.

Regardless of whatever math equations or whatever left brained stuff might be floating around in your head ... recording is ultimately a right-brained activity that excites the right-half of the brain much moreso than the left.

Not to mention the fact that ... your recording situation is going to be far different than any other. To the point that for me or anyone else on the net to try and relate to it in any meaningful fashion ... would result in nothing more than complete rubbish.

There is no substitute for hard work. Getting your hands dirty ... and obsessing over this stuff until your brain simply can't take any more. And then going out and doing it again until you finally wrap your head around it in a meaningful way. This isn't some pazy profession like accounting or computer programming (cough cough) where you go to school ... learn the codes and then apply them. This recording stuff is a really seriously fucked up discipline that -- just when you think you've got it cracked -- will render you a complete moron in no time flat.

.

I agree 100% that this is an art and that there is no right way to do things, and that when it all comes down to it, trial and error and experimenting are the main aspects of recording, but at the same time I cant agree with you that there is no science involved in it. There is. If you seriously cant comprehend this then you must be insanely stupid. There is science behind everything. Even art. When analyzing a painting, one can get into psychology, a science.

 

[chessrock]

Well then if you're ready to make that jump, I've got something else for you to chew on ...

While guys like Southside will obsess over gear, mixing, use of gear and use of mixing etc. etc. add nausium ...

Are you willing to accept the idea that the source itself has it's own "science" going on? Are you willing to accept the idea that there may be nothing at all wrong with the gear that you're using, or how you're using it?

But rather ... could it be that there is something going on with source itself .... i.e. the drum set, the guitar amp ... the way the person is playing, the technique, the room accoustics, etc.

... to the point where what you think sounds good, in the room mind you, is in some way "off?" Knowing what you might know about physics, are you willing to accept that things like air pressure in your basement / bedroom ... humidity level ... even the number of feet above sea level your recording environment is ... will all have a huge, gigantic, tremendous effect on what is ultimately gets recorded?

Now assuming you're ready to make that stretch ... are you ready to make the assumption with me that the factors I just listed can have the deceptive and sneaky effect of making you think that something is wrong with your gear? I'm telling you right now that a poorly-tuned head on a snare sounds frighteningly similar to a microphone that has very little high end response ... or a mic pre that has poor transient response.

So frighteningly similar, in fact, that it would be extremely easy to make the mis-step of confusing one with the other. I'm telling you this from experience, because I know it to be true. Regardless of what "the professor" might be trying to convince you of ... a bad room sounds a LOT like a really bad mic. A set of dull strings on a bass or a guitar sound UNMISTAKENLY similar to a dull-sounding mic.

And a vocalist who has to turn his head just an inch or so to cheat and look at a lyric sheet ... sounds almost completely indestinguishable from a really shitty microphone OR a really bad room. So much so, that even the most highly disciplined ear would have a VERY tough time telling one from the other.

Are you with me? Regardless of how much of an asshole you think I am ... this is God-honest truth, if you're still following me.

.

 

[NTK88]

Well then if you're ready to make that jump, I've got something else for you to chew on ...

While guys like Southside will obsess over gear, mixing, use of gear and use of mixing etc. etc. add nausium ...

Are you willing to accept the idea that the source itself has it's own "science" going on? Are you willing to accept the idea that there may be nothing at all wrong with the gear that you're using, or how you're using it?

But rather ... could it be that there is something going on with source itself .... i.e. the drum set, the guitar amp ... the way the person is playing, the technique, the room accoustics, etc.

... to the point where what you think sounds good, in the room mind you, is in some way "off?" Knowing what you might know about physics, are you willing to accept that things like air pressure in your basement / bedroom ... humidity level ... even the number of feet above sea level your recording environment is ... will all have a huge, gigantic, tremendous effect on what is ultimately gets recorded?

Now assuming you're ready to make that stretch ... are you ready to make the assumption with me that the factors I just listed can have the deceptive and sneaky effect of making you think that something is wrong with your gear? I'm telling you right now that a poorly-tuned head on a snare sounds frighteningly similar to a microphone that has very little high end response ... or a mic pre that has poor transient response.

So frighteningly similar, in fact, that it would extremely easy to make the mis-step of confusing one with the other. I'm telling you this from experience, because I know it to be true. Regardless of what "the professor" might be trying to convince you of ... a bad room sounds a LOT like a really bad mic. A set of dull strings on a bass or a guitar sound UNMISTAKENLY similar to a dull-sounding mic.

And a vocalist who has to turn his head just an inch or so to cheat and look at a lyric sheet ... sounds almost completely indestinguishable from a really shitty microphone OR a really bad room. So much so, that even the most highly disciplined ear would have a VERY tough time telling one from the other.

Are you with me?

.

Not only am I with you but I couldnt have said it better myself.
I do think however the fact that we went into the mixer at -15 VU and about the same level into the recorder could be a problem. What do you think?

And for the record I my tom toms sing, my bass booms and snare is a gun shot! In the room anyway.

Clearly im new to this, poor results are to be expected but at the same time the reason I argue with you is because some of what you say goes against what I have been told by countless people and read from books / observed from watching dvds on professional bands recording / experiementing on my own.

Im going to band practice, ill update on how the changes work out.

 

[chessrock]

I think that might make a difference of about a "2" on a scale of 1 to 10. But only if it was REALLY botched up (remember, we are in a 24-bit world in this day and age).

On the other hand ... I think the other stuff I mentioned might make a difference of about a 9 1/2 ... on the same scale.

Still following me?

 

[jamacian]

I think that might make a difference of about a "2" on a scale of 1 to 10. But only if it was REALLY botched up (remember, we are in a 24-bit world in this day and age).

On the other hand ... I think the other stuff I mentioned might make a difference of about a 9 1/2 ... on the same scale.

Still following me?

Was it good for you too?

 

[chessrock]

Shut up, Jamacian. I'm on a (t)roll.

.

 

[bkkornaker]

Bah!!!!! Lol!!!!!!!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Just let him (t)roll, he's digging his own grave.

NTK, by all means explore and experiment. But follow your instincts as to whether it's best to explore blindly, or to explore with the help of maps drawn by others who have been there before you.

And remember who was the one who told you not to blame the gear, but rather to get the technique straight.

G.

 

[NTK88]

I think that might make a difference of about a "2" on a scale of 1 to 10. But only if it was REALLY botched up (remember, we are in a 24-bit world in this day and age).

On the other hand ... I think the other stuff I mentioned might make a difference of about a 9 1/2 ... on the same scale.

Still following me?

Well you were wrong.
Its not the players or the gear.

Im a realistic person and we sound great live.
It wasnt translating onto the recording and I was confused.

I fixed our gain settings and made them more even and brought our tracking volume up and notcied a difference, especially when I mic'd my snare drum. Everything I recorded tonight sounded like it did in room, and even the guitarist said he thought it sounded spot on like it did in room and he didnt even know about this convo

Oh yea and I mic'ed the guitar like you said you like to and got great results.
+1. Do you do the same for bass?