The Mess

[frederic]

How not to store your equipment take II

If any of you say that I'm not an organized person, I will agree with you then promptly slap you

While most of the boxes are full of cables I've been accumulating for years, some of the boxes do have gear in them. Would you believe there is a blue sofa under there

If you look up in the left corner of the picture you see a gray thing with a black spot in the center - thats my webcam.

The guitar case to the right contains my Ibanez Artist Pro. I really should put that in the vocal booth, if it got damaged I'd probably cry.

Okay, I've procrastinated enough, its time to get coffee and head up there.

 

[frederic]

Ceiling TearDown

I am convinced this garage loft was originally designed on the fly and assembled by sub-standard moronic chimps.

Why?

The disheveled poor excuse of a tongue and groove ceiling extends out of the loft into the neighboring bathroom six inches, and the wall between the two is nailed (finishing nails no less) to the ceiling between the joists.

The 6" of bathroom overhang just hangs, its not supported in anyway, and there is one row of bathroom tiles that is 1/2 glued to the cedar panels, and 1/2 glued to the greenboard over the shower stall.

Why?

I have no idea. However, to remove the ceiling in the studio, I have to pretty much destroy the bathroom ceiling and part of the wall since its all tiled together.

If I ever find out who made this I'm going to staple his pancreas to a plaque and mount it on the wall. *sigh*

I was thinking maybe I could cut it near the edge of the studio wall, but thats not doable since the bathroom side is completely unsupported. I guess I could cut it 1' out where the joist is, and just run the plywood to that seam, except then I can't insulate where the 1' of ceiling is. Well, maybe I could do it from the top. No, wait, can't, there are joists there and the roof is on top of that. Hmmmm. Maybe I need to drill 1" holes and hire someone to pump insulation foam in there.

Grrrrrr.

I found more unterminated cloth-covered electrial wires in the ceiling I have torn down so far, though only one of the three was actually live, and very flaky at that. I spliced in a light socket thinking I could light the whole room but it kept flickering on and off, I imagine whereever it terminates the wirenuts came off long ago. Whats really "bright" is it runs down the wall right behind the shower stall in the neighboring bathroom, then turns and goes underneath the shower stall. Who intertwines electrical with shower stalls? Insane.

back to pancreas mounting fantasies.

 

[frederic]

Turned out okay after all (the annoying shared ceiling boards).

I cut at the joist, figuring I'd mount a 2x4 on the inside of the joist and attach the new ceiling to that, so cut cut cut cut i did and viola, there is a 2x4 on the otherside of the joist that the other ceiling is attached to, so i put in more nails into that 2x4, then used my handy dandy sabre saw and cut between the joist and the 2x4.

problem solved.

Didn't lose one bathroom tile... I went in there and pushed on them gently, and they are all rock solid!

Woohoo! I wasn't really in the mood to spend studio remodeling money on remodeling a bathroom.

So now the ceiling tear down has progressed, and of course I found more destroyed insulation, and 3 more heat-baked dead field mice.

I also found several joists that didn't have insulation -at all- between them, so that might be additional reasons why this room is so hot in the summer and freezing in the winter.

Sad thing is I knocked the window frame loose I wanted to replace it anyway, but I didn't want to do that today. I think I'm going to add more nails to the frame so it doesn't fall out. Today is not window day.

Now that I can crawl into the attic (sorta, its very tight), I see that their isn't that much space up there anyway, so I'm going to remove all the horizontal 2x4's and relocate them further up. Looking at all the cross supports these 2x4's are structural at all - in fact most of them are very loose so I'm going to give myself a little more ceiling height. 7' is kinda low. Maybe, six inches or so, thus leaving enough room for insulation and flush mounted ceiling lights.

I am still impressed how good the inner roof is - looks brand new even after 42 years. Cool

 

[frederic]

Keeps getting more interesting.

I have the ceiling torn down to the vocal booth at the back of the studio, based on how the ceiling support beams go, I have to take down the vocal booth to get them down. That means all the gear in the vocal booth has to migrate down two flights of stairs into the basement, on pallets. Not a big deal, except I have a lot of gear

While inspecting the joists as far as I can see, I've noticed some water stains... hmm... so I climb onto the roof over the studio, and noticed something weird.

The entire house is covered in slate roof tiles, except the back half of the studio. Tar paper, with tar poured on top much like commercial buildings. Sure enough, approximately where I see the water damage on the inside, there's a hole in the tar. Not a big hole mind you, but its obviously been there for a very long time. Looking at it closely from the inside, I can see light from the outside.

So, I chaulked it with silicon as a temporary measure, I know its not going to last more than a week, but it gives me time to figure out what to do about it. Never repaired a tar roof, and I'm thinking that hole would be an excellent pilot hole to cut out for a powered roof vent. It has to go somewhere, and the hole is fairly close to the eave. Might be just dandy.

I've also decided to remove the 2x4's that held the ceiling at the 7' mark, and level. At the center of the room I can get 2 additional feet, and at the very back of the studio i can get 6", so that will make the room appear bigger. A foot average is not a whole lot, but when you're 5'11" a few inches make for a more open feeling. Running electrical up into the ceiling (if I remove the sub ceiling) is going to be a pain, but I think it will be worth it. Already decided to use PVC tubing specifically for outdoor electrical, so in case the roof leaks I don't have a fire. For what it costs I don't view it as a big deal. Plus, its easy to do

Well, time to make another pot of coffee and get cracking. My wife was supposed to be up here an hour ago and help move gear into the attic, but I think she's avoiding me, not that I blame her. This stuff is heavy! I'll have some pictures in a bit, can't find the USB cable at the moment, its probably on the floor under torn insulation heh-heh

 

[jkrummri]

Hay just a word of caution! If you take out the stringers I think that is what they are called)
It may weaken your roofs down force support. I did the same thing I think you are talking
About in my 3 ed floor. My little brother came over and freaked out on me. Sucks when your little bro
Gets one up on you ! So he put in new stringers but he raised them up doubled the thickness and staggered them I have to admit it came out great
Hope it turns out great for you

 

[frederic]

Jkrummri,

Yes, the stringers is what i'm debating taking out, only because most of them aren't nailed in well anyway, and I wasn't sure how much they support the roof considering how they are installed. You'd have to see how lame it was to really appreciate this mess.

They are also VERY long.... I've attached a scale drawing as to what it looks like. I tried to snap a few photos of it, but they didn't come out well enough to really illustrate what I'm have.

Also, my space isn't as grand as yours, your ceiling with the triangulated stringers is gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. If I had more ceiling height I'd not hesitate to do this. Unfortunately, I don't. If I have to double up the stringers, and take out every other one, I could install plywood around them, it would be a pain to do but much better than having the roof come down.

BTW, the interior dimensions are 20' long (across the width of the diagram), and 13' wide (depth into the diagram, not illustrated) Prolly should have put that on the diagram for clarity.

 

[frederic]

The stringers are red in the picture.

The rightmost line is an outer wall, constructed of 2x8's which the joists at the 7 degree pitch rest on.

The left most line is a fake wall made of 2x4's thats 3' high, blocking off a crawl space that essentually goes down to 0' high, which is the garage eave in the front of the house.

The floor joists of this room are 2x12's and span the entire length of the room, left to right, from the front eave (not show) all the way to the back of the house, which is the rightmost line (plus 8", the thickness of the wall".

Maybe the floor would be the stringers? Probably not nice its not a true triangle, and there is a stairwell at the right of the diagram heading into the garage. But the stairwell has a cinderblock wall which the floor joists attach to.

The other thing I have to figure out is if I do in fact put plywood and rockwool in between the joists, then the vapor barrier, then the commercial grade plywood, the air essentially is trapped in between the joists. I'd have to figure out how to vent that out so moisture and heat doesn't build up.

Maybe moving the ceiling up slightly is the right answer, rather than all the way up to the roof joists. I was hoping for a little more ceiling height, and more volume (air) in the room for better sound, before I bite off 6" on all surfaces with auralex foam and such.

Thanks for the input... I have some thinking to do i guess!

BTW, I really, really like your stringers... framing them out like that and painting them in a constrast color is awesome.

 

[frederic]

Stringer Photo

Here is a photo of the stringers. I found if I turned off the lights resting on the floor the camera over-flashed and it came out okay.

 

[frederic]

Stringer Photo, other side

This is from the window, in.

 

[fitzintahoe]

Hello frederic, how ya doin guy? Wow, I thought I was the only one with mess's and problems like that. Ha, are we havin fun yet? Sorry to hear about the commercial thing. Hope you get it resolved soon. I havn't had a chance to read your posts lately so excuse me if I'm sticking my nose in here.
Well, I'm in the middle of a move, and when I get moved in, my gear will be in a bedroom temporarily also. I've got a big pole barn to temporarily brace till I decide what I'm going to do with it.
The roof is new construction and big, so I want to keep it in the air via the poles untill I pour a foundation and couple of slabs,
while keeping the poles in place till then. Ha, what a nightmare. Can't afford to tear it down and start from scratch.
Well good luck with the rebuild project and the commercial one too. Keep us posted and I'll be back on line soon.
Cheers, fitz

 

[frederic]

Hello frederic, how ya doin guy?

Overall, I'm doing okay. Been a rough few months (multiple re-orgs at work, commercial building problems, 23 y/o cat passing, carpenter ants, etc). But I am okay now, the world didn't beat me down enough to collapse into a hefty bag just yet.

And the day gets better, I hear my wife grinding coffee beans

Wow, I thought I was the only one with mess's and problems like that. Ha, are we havin fun yet? Sorry to hear about the commercial thing. Hope you get it resolved soon. I havn't had a chance to read your posts lately so excuse me if I'm sticking my nose in here.

Stick your nose in all you want, you're more than welcome. I missed our exchanges, actually. While you've been away, so have I. I returned a week or two ago from a frustrated hiatus.

I have to figure out how to do a ridge vent on a multi-pitch roof (30 degrees one side, covered in slate, 7 degrees otherside, covered in tar), without destroying the slate.

Then I have to figure out if the stringers can go, or not. I'd like them to leave

Other than that, studio tear-down is going okay. Got out several bare, unterminated electrical out of the ceiling.

All the wildlife (ants, termintes, mice) have been evacuated successfully.

Its coming along slowly, but there is progress every weekend which is good. Today's effort once I get my lazy arse off the sofa is to relocate the stack of gear in the vocal booth into the attic, then tear down the vocal booth, then continue tearing down the ceiling/walls. Then, seal 4-5 holes in the tar roof section.

Well, I'm in the middle of a move, and when I get moved in, my gear will be in a bedroom temporarily also. I've got a big pole barn to temporarily brace till I decide what I'm going to do with it.

Barns are cool... I wish I had the space here for a barn - my home studio would move there instantly

The roof is new construction and big, so I want to keep it in the air via the poles untill I pour a foundation and couple of slabs, while keeping the poles in place till then. Ha, what a nightmare. Can't afford to tear it down and start from scratch.

Yeah, I hear you. I wanted to raise the roof in the studio so that both sides were pitched the same, and give me more ceiling height, but every estimate I got was ludicrous. And its not something I can do quick enough as to avoid ruining the garage below, so I'm going to do it the "lame" way. Its mostly for my composing needs, so its not like it has to be "perfect", just better than what it is now.

No mice/ants!!!!!!! lol.

Well good luck with the rebuild project and the commercial one too. Keep us posted and I'll be back on line soon.
Cheers, fitz

Thanks, glad you're back online. I tried your email address about two months ago, and the message bounced back. I didn't realize at the time you were moving. Glad you're well and still around!!

 

[frederic]

Stringers revisited

I think I've solved several problems by simply moving the joists up rather than removing them entirely.

1. I keep the stringers, which will provide strength to the roof as was suggested. I'll double them up on either side of the joist.

2. By having stringers in the first place, there is shared airspace above the ceiling that can be vented out easily, allowing both sides of the eaves to be vented out the one side. There is no way I'm going to risk cutting into the slate side, with my luck I'll trash the roof. The tar side is easier to cut, so I'm going to put two rectangular roof vents, then fix the tar roof problem by applying asphalt shingles and chaulking. Beats tearing down the roof and starting over. Should be good for 20 years. Just have to verify that asphault shingles can surve a mere 7 degree slant. Maybe I'll just get a 30 gallon drum of tar roof sealant and seal it up that way after the cuts.

3. With stringers, theres at least a little space for flush mounted lighting, which is a nice finishing touch to a room. Plan to have two 4' flourescents for general lighting, used when I'm moving stuff in and out and such, or just surfing the net. Will also mount in some recessed eyeballs on dimmers for atmosphere, and possibly some track lighting.

There, I think I have something workable. Now to research ways of fixing the roof up post-vent install

 

[frederic]

Attic Gear Slut

Since the Vocal booth is coming down on tuesday, had to relocate all the gear that was in it to the attic.

Still have to move all the non-rack mount stuff out of the room, as well as about 15 boxes of snakes.

Fun!

 

[frederic]

And yes, the "pile" goes all the way to the far wall at the back of the picture.

Time for a garage sale?